Velodyne SMS-1 for 2-channel?

[Dan Prorok]

So, I have an SMS-1 on the way. The inner geek in me is anxious to start tweaking and measuring and tweaking again. While I have been waiting for the device to arrive, I've been wondering how best to integrate it. At present, I do not use my Descent for 2-channel at all: it's attached to the subwoofer output of my B&K Ref 50 and since I run my turntable and CD player in "analog" direct mode on the processor, there is no sampling done by the Ref 50 to do the crossover and bass management.

There are numerous ways to integrate the SMS-1 into my setup, but the two most straightforward are to either:

1. Run the subwoofer output of the Ref 50 into the SMS-1 and just use the SMS-1 for home theater duty. This has the advantage of keeping my two-channel path more pure, but with a Ref 50 in the middle, even in bypass mode, it can't be *that* pure.

or

2. Disable the subwoofer output entirely on the Ref 50, set the front speakers to "large" and then run the front two channels into the SMS-1 for all bass management. This has the advantage of permitting bass management (and use of the descent) for two-channel as well. This set-up also lends itself to two variations for the "high-pass" going to the SL-3's:

2a. Hook the high-pass up to the "THRU" jack and send the full-range to the SL-3's. This might be preferable for 2-channel, but might be nasty for home theater and its extreme bass.

2b. Hook the high-pass up to the "OUTPUT" jack and make use of the 80 Hz analog cross-over.​

You might wonder, with me using a B&K Ref 50 as a prepro that I'm not that serious about two-channel and, for now, you'd probably be right, but I am also trying to think ahead since my next upgrade will likely be a real dedicated two-channel preamp for the CD player and turntable with the processor either running through a passthrough or just another input into the preamp. This would give me the opportunity to put the SMS-1 between the processor and preamp and thus only use it for home theater or put it between the preamp and the front channel amps to use for everything. The disadvantage to the latter, again, is added complexity to the two-channel path.

Using the SMS-1 and Descent for home theater is a no-brainer; it's the two-channel I waffle on each day. Are there any two-channel fanatics out there who have given this some thought?

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Dan,
I would say Dan (DTB300) is you man with the answers.

Jeff

 

[twich54]

but I am also trying to think ahead since my next upgrade will likely be a real dedicated two-channel preamp for the CD player and turntable with the processor either running through a passthrough or just another input into the preamp. This would give me the opportunity to put the SMS-1 between the processor and preamp and thus only use it for home theater or put it between the preamp and the front channel amps to use for everything. The disadvantage to the latter, again, is added complexity to the two-channel path.

Dan, Good evening, First off, Jeff is correct, hopefully my "Bass Managment Mentor" Dan aka DTB300 will chime in here shortly. In the meantime I can tell you this much, pairing the SMS unit with the coorect sub WILL make you a believer in it's integration with respect to two channel listening.

Your planned next upgrade of a serious two channel pre-amp is a good one , IMO, given the fact that, like myself, you induldge in both analog and digital play back. I use both of the 'main outs' on my ARC LS-26, one pair feeding my Plinius and the other pair to my Velodyne DD-15. The DD-15 is cut in @70 hz / 24db slope and coupled with the ongoing acoustical room treatments being done I can tell you ....I'm happier than a "pig n' poop" !!

Seriously Dan has been my inspiration, so hopefully he will arrive on the scene !!

 

[Pcar928fan]

Dan, Good evening, First off, Jeff is correct, hopefully my "Bass Managment Mentor" Dan aka DTB300 will chime in here shortly. In the meantime I can tell you this much, pairing the SMS unit with the coorect sub WILL make you a believer in it's integration with respect to two channel listening.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, if you like to listen to music that has a wide freq. range and your speakers won't go WAAAYYYY down into the low 20's Hz (which almost NONE of them will...at least for less than about $50k) then you NEED to add a VERY MUSICAL sub to the mix! Never heard the Velodyne stuff, but I know a lot of you guys use and really like them, I KNOW the ML and REL stuff is very musical and I am sure there are others as well. It will REALLY enhance your 2 channel enjoyment, and if you can put TWO of them in all the better! Look for something that will get down to at least 22Hz and you won't be sorry! If it will get to 18Hz and work for HT use then all the better. The Descent don't go quite that low, but I don't feel like I am lacking anything in 2 Ch. music or HT modes! I have it hooked up through the LFE of the Rotel 1098...works like a champ! YMMV!

 

[DTB300]

Dan, I would say Dan (DTB300) is you man with the answers.

I hear ya loud and clear and I am here!!! - Man, you took time away from your new toy to post???? You must be at work!!!:haha1:

2. Disable the subwoofer output entirely on the Ref 50, set the front speakers to "large" and then run the front two channels into the SMS-1 for all bass management. This has the advantage of permitting bass management (and use of the descent) for two-channel as well. This set-up also lends itself to two variations for the "high-pass" going to the SL-3's:

This is the way I would run it, then you will get the best for both of your worlds - two channel and HT. High Pass is something you will need to try out and see which way you like it best.

then you NEED to add a VERY MUSICAL sub

Pcar...no attack on you here...

Musical, fast, slow, man I do I get tired of these audio terms for a sub.

Either the sub produces the low end correctly or it doesn't. Not fast, not slow, but accurate .....Sorry about that rant as I am off my medication.:haha1:

If a sub is boomy, then is it a HT sub and not a musical sub? I know I want an accurate sub for my HT listening as I do not want boomy bass drowning out stuff.

There are sacrifices for all types of subs out there from sealed, ported, IB, horn, driver, servo, etc. etc.etc. One just has to look at what each will give you and what they don't and go from there. There are people that love one manufacturer and others that hate them. Like any of our other components one has to audition, listen, and make their choice based on their budgets.

A final note, as Dave pointed out, to really help get the final pieces of the puzzle together for your low end is Measurements, EQ, & Room Treatments. I know we talked about this in other threads here, but again it is something that needs to be part of the overall equation.

Dan

 

[Dan Prorok]

Man, you took time away from your new toy to post???? You must be at work!!!

Even though I did work way too much this past weekend, the only reason I actually had time to post was that the new toy is in the mail and won't be here for a day or two. That didn't keep me from downloading the manual and thinking about the myriad of ways I could use it...and hence, this post! If I disappear for a week in a few days, you'll know why!

Thanks for the advice to get started; If all goes well, I will commence experimentation shortly.

 

[Pcar928fan]

Pcar...no attack on you here...

Musical, fast, slow, man I do I get tired of these audio terms for a sub.

Either the sub produces the low end correctly or it doesn't. Not fast, not slow, but accurate .....Sorry about that rant as I am off my medication.:haha1:

If a sub is boomy, then is it a HT sub and not a musical sub? I know I want an accurate sub for my HT listening as I do not want boomy bass drowning out stuff.

JEEZUS Dan, take your freaking meds! All I am saying is some subs get put into HT's and they sound like crap but if all you listen to is how they rattle your walls while watching a movie what do you care anyway. I don't think that would be anyone on this list, but just the same I thought it was worth pointing out that actually listening to some MUSIC with the sub is a GOOD IDEA before you buy. OR since the OP was on this list asking the question just thought I would mention that most of us are looking for subs that sound good not only with HT (the easy part really) but also with MUSIC and those subs tend to be: ML, REL, Velodyne... a few others too, but I have never heard any of those, but I have the three I mentioned.

As I look back to the OP though, I see it is a moot point anyway as Dan already has a nice sub, he was only asking about its use with 2 channel listening... SO, Dan Prorok, use the sub for 2 channel and enjoy...unless of course you are listening to Statement E2's which have plenty of bass in their giant towers. Any other ML speakers will benefit from your sub! I know my Prodigy do, if not by HUGE margins!

 

[JonFo]

Just a quick note of caution for your option 2 (telling processor you have large mains and no sub).

Many processors will apply limits to the amount of LFE routed to the L/R channel in this scenario. Since most 'large' speakers are not really capable of Subwoofer level performance (either in extension or dynamics).

So you might find yourself lacking in LFE bass for HT movies compared to other set-up schemes you might try.

However, it depends on your processor, so look into what the vendor or other owners have to say about this config.

 

[DTB300]

JEEZUS Dan, take your freaking meds!

He he...see, now I told you it was not an attack on you!!!! Just a pet peeve with me, that is all. Now where is that bottle......:devil:

OR since the OP was on this list asking the question just thought I would mention that most of us are looking for subs that sound good not only with HT (the easy part really) but also with MUSIC and those subs tend to be: ML, REL, Velodyne... a few others too, but I have never heard any of those, but I have the three I mentioned.

Exactly!!!

Most HT enthusiast are looking for HIGH SPL levels at low frequencies, but high output does not always equate to accurate reproduction, but it can - just ask some of the IB sub people.

One of the best things is to play the sub by itself and put the low pass xover up and see how it reproduces some of the lower registers for instruments. Then you will get the true sense of how well the sub performs for proper reproduction in the lower octaves.

Dan

 

[Rich]

Musical, fast, slow, man I do I get tired of these audio terms for a sub.

Either the sub produces the low end correctly or it doesn't. Not fast, not slow, but accurate

Dan,

I understand your pet peeve and must say I am guilty myself of using these terms to describe what truly is just "accurate reproduction of bass response." But I think we always look for more descriptive terminology to paint a picture of what we are hearing from our equipment. This is no different than saying: "the midrange was liquid, the highs were pure and extended, without grain." Either the mids and highs were accurately reproduced or they weren't. These are just our ways of describing what we are hearing from our equipment and I think that there is some value in that.

When I say that the Descent is one of the most musical subs I have heard, I mean that it sounds really good when properly integrated into a two-channel setup playing music. Plenty of subs don't, as we all know.

I think it is helpful to have different terms to describe the experience other than just whether the component is accurately reproducing the frequencies or it isn't. If that is all it comes down to, then forums like this would get boring very quickly. I don't see why describing the sound of a sub should be any different in that regard than describing the sound of any other system component. Just my 2 cents.

 

[twich54]

To further, 'put a slant' on this, one of the benifits of a 'Servo' based sub is the ability to control servo gain. This gives one, under maximum gain the least amount of distortion, ideal for music, and when the gain is relaxed a bit more distortion is alowed in along with a louder mix for HT explosions, etc.

Bottom line___________ a well made Servo based sub along with a good SMS/Eq mgmt sys and good acoustics can be made to perform 'magic' for anybodys personal tastes !!

 

[DTB300]

I understand your pet peeve and must say I am guilty myself of using these terms to describe what truly is just "accurate reproduction of bass response." ......... I don't see why describing the sound of a sub should be any different in that regard than describing the sound of any other system component. Just my 2 cents.

Rich....Yes, I do agree.... sort of... and I know what people are saying with the host of terms used in audio as I have been around it for quite a while. It is the newbies that take a beating trying to get up to speed!!!

While I have been reading all the posts about "fast" and "slow" subs, it just came to a head and I snapped :devil: But you know, I feel much better now!!!

Audio terminology and its attempt at trying to describe the sound we are hearing, for others to learn from, and what it really sounds like, is very hard. Do I have a solution for a better system - no I am afraid not.

And what one person may describe as a "musical" sub may sound like complete Doo-Doo to others - the same problem with all audio components - personal preference and opinion. Get out, listen, and make your own decisions.

Dan