To summit or not to summit, that is the question...

[Pcar928fan]

James,

The Signature 1.5 is already used for the front channels. It would be driven by the stereo pre-amp for 2 channel music. In HT mode the HT pre-/pro would drive, with the 2ch pre-amp in pass-through mode.

Interesting...what is a Signature 1.5? Not familiar... Obviously this 2ch. has a pass through. Does it have to be turned on to pass through or does it pass when off and what would the Rotel send to it? The Pre out for front left and right? Just curious. Are other 2ch Preamps like this?

 

[ralflar]

The Signature 1.5 is the Harman Kardon power amplifier pat17 uses to drive his front main channels.

Pass-through is a pre-amp feature. It is done like this: The front L/R pre-amp outputs of the HT pre-/pro or HT receiver are connected to the appropriate inputs of the pre-amp. The pre-amp's outputs are connected to the stereo power amp (or a pair of monos) in the usual way. When the pre-amp is in pass-through mode its volume control is disabled. The signal sent from the HT pre-pro simply passes through.

You could insert a 2ch pre with pass-through feature between your 1090 and your 1098. I believe that some pre-amps enable pass through when they are in stand-by mode; others require the pass through mode to be selected explicitely, e.g. per remote.

 

[ralflar]

James,

I forgot to mention, two channel sources such as a Squeezebox would be connected to the 2ch pre-amp. Sources which output both stereo and multi-channel need to be connected to both the stereo pre and the HT pre-pro. The analog stereo output of such a source goes into the stereo pre, for Red Book CD and 2ch SACD. Most uniplayers have two digital outs. One could be used with an external DAC to feed into the stereo pre-amp, for Red Book CD. The analog multi-channel outputs of a uniplayer would be hooked up to the analog multi-channel inputs of the HT pre-pro, for SACD and DVD-A audio and full resolution movie sound tracks. Alternatively/Additionally use the (remaining) digital out and HDMI out of the source for (down-sampled) movie sound.

 

[Pcar928fan]

James,

I forgot to mention, two channel sources such as a Squeezebox would be connected to the 2ch pre-amp. Sources which output both stereo and multi-channel need to be connected to both the stereo pre and the HT pre-pro. The analog stereo output of such a source goes into the stereo pre, for Red Book CD and 2ch SACD. Most uniplayers have two digital outs. One could be used with an external DAC to feed into the stereo pre-amp, for Red Book CD. The analog multi-channel outputs of a uniplayer would be hooked up to the analog multi-channel inputs of the HT pre-pro, for SACD and DVD-A audio and full resolution movie sound tracks. Alternatively/Additionally use the (remaining) digital out and HDMI out of the source for (down-sampled) movie sound.

COOL! New info to me...but something I had thought about. I figured someone had done it and there were products that could make that happen. Now I know! Thanks much!

 

[pat17]

Patrick,

From a multi channel point of view I would say this: the deal is 5.5k plus the 1.5 to 2k for used Clarities. 7 to 7.5k is still a lot of money. I also feel that the Summits are wasted in your system, if your prime interest is multi-channel and HT. It is a nicely balanced system and a room which looks both classy and comfy. I'd leave it like it is.

Seen from the two channel perspective, what are you waiting for? For about the same price as a new pair of Vantages you can get Summits without hassle. I'd do it. Then I'd get a dedicated two channel pre-amp with HT passthru, and worry about the power amps later.

Thanks for your advice!

As far as my system is concerned, I prefer to have a balanced versatile one, and not to have too many products. It's why I have chosen the ML speaskers, that can do a great job in all configurations.

Anyway, the dealer informed me the other customer didn't like them, and was going to Vantages as well. I'll try to have a listening tomorrow (sundays are working days in the U.A.E.), as the speakers are back, and check if it can be worth trying to listen to them in my place or not (which the dealer should agree on).

Interesting...what is a Signature 1.5? Not familiar...

It's a vintage product now, that dates back when H/K was better positionned on the High End market. The only interesting link I could find is... the owner's manual -

http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Service Manual/Signature1-5 sm.pdf

 

[benleeys]

I fully agree when it comes to DVDs Audio and Video, SACDs, but not when it comes to CDs... The fact is that I'm connected with CINCH output only as my pre amp is purely analogue, maybe it works better with a coax or optical signal?

Pat17,

I too am using RCA (Cinch) analogue out for CDs into my Classe preamp and, to my ears, it sounds much better than my Krell Showcase player. Also much better than when I use digital output into my MSB Link DAC III D/A (upsampled to 132 kHz). My interconnects are NBS.

You say your 5-ch outputs sound great. I take it that you use a different preamp for these. In that case, maybe the problem lies with the preamp you are using for your CDs.

Ben

 

[timm]

For what it's worth dept --
I have a denon 5900 - the analog connections sound better than the digital. Also, there is NO WAY I would purchase Vantages - if I could get Summits for 5500. I used to think - get the amp/pre/source in line -- THEN get the speakers.... Not any more - get the speaker 1st - and live with the fact that your source may not allow the speakers to sound as good as they could. Listen to your summits in 2 channel for music - and let them play in your HT.

More what its worth - I have done A/B comparisons in home environments between the denon 5900 & a !0 grand Wadia CD only player as well as a modded Denon 3910 which has been favorably compared to the Meitner gear. Yes - there are differences - but they are the types of diffs that if you didn't A/B them directly - you probably wouldn't miss it.

 

[Joey_V]

If the Summits are what you can get a deal on and not the Vantages, then by all means, get the Summits. I skimmed the thread and didnt catch the fact that you were only offered a really good Summit deal, and not a Vantage deal of the same respect.

Start with the Summits, let the HK power them for a while. Later, when you have the itch, you know that you have the potential to unlock with the help of a good preamp and good amp just for 2ch stereo listening.

Go go go!!

Joey

 

[pat17]

Pat17,

I too am using RCA (Cinch) analogue out for CDs into my Classe preamp and, to my ears, it sounds much better than my Krell Showcase player. Also much better than when I use digital output into my MSB Link DAC III D/A (upsampled to 132 kHz). My interconnects are NBS.

To be quite honnest I don't like Krell much - IMHO they are really precise, very neutral... and by being so analytical they just lack life...

Actually the connection between the Denon and the Harman/Kardon Signature 1.0 is done through 5 German-made Viablue interconnects, and that's it. Either I listen to CDs, DVDs or SACDs, it all goes through the same path. I've been told that the Stereo input of the H/K Signature 1.0 might give better results, although it's supposed to be the same input than the FL and FR inputs of the 5.1 analog inputs.

For what it's worth dept --
I have a denon 5900 - the analog connections sound better than the digital.

I got it as well before I got the 5910 - I know I' mad.

There's truly a difference between the two machines, and not when it comes to video only, far from it.

Also, there is NO WAY I would purchase Vantages - if I could get Summits for 5500. I used to think - get the amp/pre/source in line -- THEN get the speakers.... Not any more - get the speaker 1st - and live with the fact that your source may not allow the speakers to sound as good as they could. Listen to your summits in 2 channel for music - and let them play in your HT.

I'll test them in two steps, the second depending on the result of the first one -

- In the auditorium itself, just to have an overall impression of the speakers when listening to a selection of discs I perfectly know.

- at home, to see how the Summits interact with my room, my amps and the other speakers.

If the Summits are what you can get a deal on and not the Vantages, then by all means, get the Summits. I skimmed the thread and didnt catch the fact that you were only offered a really good Summit deal, and not a Vantage deal of the same respect.

Start with the Summits, let the HK power them for a while. Later, when you have the itch, you know that you have the potential to unlock with the help of a good preamp and good amp just for 2ch stereo listening.

Go go go!!

Joey

Thanks Joey!

Anyway, it reminds me of a previous experience - when I got the Clarities, I found them quite amazing on my inegrated amplifier - another H/K one, and when I switcher to the current H/K Signature series, I had another shock... The story might continue the same way with the Summits, one never knows...

 

[benleeys]

Actually the connection between the Denon and the Harman/Kardon Signature 1.0 is done through 5 German-made Viablue interconnects, and that's it. Either I listen to CDs, DVDs or SACDs, it all goes through the same path. I've been told that the Stereo input of the H/K Signature 1.0 might give better results, although it's supposed to be the same input than the FL and FR inputs of the 5.1 analog inputs.

Pat17,

Maybe you should try the 2-ch audio out connection direct into your preamp, i.e. bypassing the processor for your CDs. That's how I listen to mine. You might be surprised. Most processors are poor cousins to a normal preamp.

Ben

 

[pat17]

Pat17,

Maybe you should try the 2-ch audio out connection direct into your preamp, i.e. bypassing the processor for your CDs. That's how I listen to mine. You might be surprised. Most processors are poor cousins to a normal preamp.

Ben

Ben, the H/K Signature 1.0 is an analogue preamp - it contains no processor at all. This is the Denon 5910 which is decoding all audio formats.

 

[pat17]

I've heard the Summits this afternoon. They were connected to a Linn setup, that was including a multichannel 100-watt Chakra Linn amps.

My feelings were as follow

CDs / Dire Strait's Brother in Arms - Hayley Westenra's Pure - Sarah Brightman's Harem

The very first impression I had with the Summits were that they had an interesting sweet spot. With the Clarities, I have to sit and to listen. If I move a little too much, I lose quite a significant part of the signal. With the Summits, I could walk in the room, keeping most of the music intact... Which is a good news for me - I enjoy quite a lot walking when I'm listening to music, giving a phone call, etc...

The vertical dispersion has been greatly improved as well, though the medium are affected when I stand up - maybe I'm too tall...

The second impression I had was the linearity of the signal. My Clarities are limited to 46 Hz, the Summits go down to 23-24 Hz... In my setup, the Grotto is helping to reproduce bass frequencies, but it's a bit difficult to find parmeters that allow the Grotto to be as efficient when listening to 2-Channel music as well as multichannel tracks...

And then I let myself being subdued by the pannels themselves... These Summits are full of life, and though I knew perfectly well, after so many years, Brothers in Arms or Pure, I was amazed by the clarity of the sound, especially the voices. Though the Clarities are already doing quite a nice job for it!

I was rather disappointed with Harem though. I do love this sensual CD, mixture of European classical music and Arabic influence. The only bad point is that, like all Sarah's recording, its technical quality is quite poor. On my current setup, I could improve its reading thanks to the PS Audio P500 though which the Denon is connected (don't ask me why). I'll have to re-check that point when I get the Summits home.


SACDs / Dvorak's Symphony # 9 (New World) - Johann Sebastian Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D Minor - Georg Friedrich Händel's Organ Concerto volume 2 - Chant Wars

This is where it was quite obvious that the auditorium setup was not great. The Center speaker was from the different brand (HP only), the Script i were not very well positionned (too much behind... and too low as they were standing on the floor), and the Dynamo subwoofer was so discreet that I noticed its presence after the session was over only. As a result, I listened to my SACDs more like CDs than real multichannel recordings! What was really weird is that the dealer assured me that he has set each speaker's level with a soundmeter... I couldn't believe it...

I was quite amazed by the details obtained on Händel's subtle concerti, as well as the magnificent Bach's Toccata overture. This latter confirmed what I thought when listening to Dire Straits - separate subwoofers are not required with such speakers, especially as my Grotto has the same HP than the Summits, and the same level of amplification as well...

On the other hand, Dvorak's fourth movement was not very convincing. SACDs are notvery good when it comes to symphonic music. ESL as well. But in this case, I was disappointed by the lack of power when the music went crescendo... IMHO, the Linn 100-watt amplification might be the main one to blame...


DVD Audio / Eagle's Hotel California

Very, very good... Once again, the Summit's integrated (sub)woofer was perfect. The music was perfect, strings and voice were really present, and amazingly, when I played with the volume, nothing was lost when it was low...


As a whole, a rather satisfactory experience. According to the dealer, the Summits are not broken in yet, which means that they should be much better. We agreed I should get them home for the next week-end, to evaluate their interaction with my room's accoustics, with the H/K Signature amplification system (at least twice as powerful as the Linn provided that Linn and H/K have a common definition of watts), and what worries me more, its integration with the other ML speakers...

 

[pat17]

End of the story...

The dealer offered me a trade-in proposal that was not as interesting as what he promised at first - considering that he was assuming the I had Clarities i, whereas mine were of the original model...

The $ 5,500 deal was really interesting, although not so easy to finance for me, as it was expected. But under these conditions, I had no other solution than to decline the revised offer...

Thanks anyway for your advice - it's interesting to note that though these speakers are really nice, their integration in my system might have been a problem. That makes my regrets less painful...