RichTeer
Well-known member
Then consider yourself lucky, and spend the cash you saved on more music!
Alas, I (and many others) do hear differences between different cables, and it ain't no placebo effect.
Speaker-cables & ESL’s; low-capacitance - coax???
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Then consider yourself lucky, and spend the cash you saved on more music!
Alas, I (and many others) do hear differences between different cables, and it ain't no placebo effect.
Bernard
Well-known member
Funny reading this discussion about placebos and double-blind:
On one occasion I made a cable change without telling my wife about it (it was on trial from my friendly ML dealer). She happened to walk by my music room and asked me, "What did you change?". This was just passing by, no double-blind gobbledygook happening.
With that evidence all of the statements about "if you can't measure it you can't hear it" fall on (my) deaf ears.
On one occasion I made a cable change without telling my wife about it (it was on trial from my friendly ML dealer). She happened to walk by my music room and asked me, "What did you change?". This was just passing by, no double-blind gobbledygook happening.
With that evidence all of the statements about "if you can't measure it you can't hear it" fall on (my) deaf ears.
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi Grant,
You state in your first sentence that you have listened ML's, BW's, VS, etc. regarding cable swapping and differences heard or not heard.
How long and in what environment?
Your system or at a dealer?
What music did you use to determine that there were no identifiable differences?
If you believe that double blind testing is a valid method for ascertaining differences between components, speakers, etc., I know I'm wasting my time posting this response.
Having said that, I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume you actually spent time evaluating the cables in your home system.
It's not about published speaker cable frequency response. That information is meaningless and is why data is not relevant. It's all about how that cable allows you to hear more into the music and increasing your emotional response / connectivity thereof. It's all about system synergy.
It appears you still believe, within the context of this discussion, that the world is flat and not round.
Oh well.
GG
oh my Gordon....that's why I get nervous when I step off the curb !
grantc79
Active member
The ML's that I listened to with high end transparent cables was with SL3's, Summits, and B&W 802 D's.
He advised me to buy a pair of 5,000 dollar speaker cables to go with the demo SL3's that I had picked up for under 2,000.
Wonder why high end audio is struggling a bit......
Why?
If there is truly an audible difference between copper and silver cables for example then someone should be able to pick out that difference without having the hook up the cables and/or see them connected.
If someone could reliably pick out the differences between copper and silver or between 10,000 cables and 200 dollar cables then skeptics like me wouldn't exist. I have met a lot of people who claim that they can but as of yet no one has reliably done so to my knowledge.
Well a person earlier in the thread was stating that cables made out of this sound brighter than speakers made out of that. If that is indeed the case then a frequency chart should show something there.
Isn't that the definition of the placebo effect?
It isn't what is, what is measurable, and what is REAL. It is how you feel, what emotions are inspired, and whatnot.
I have never been big into synergy, emotions, feelings, or connectivity when making a major purchase. The fact that some are explains why they can be sold an item that on paper doesn't show any REAL advantage over another
similar item.
Art is an exception to this rule. On its face a Van Gogh compared to your local high school artist is just a canvas with some paint on it. But a Van Gogh inspires an emotional response, feelings, and other things which are not scientifically measurable.
But art is all about emotions where as audio components is mostly about performance. We love ML speakers because of how they perform. The music is what conveys the emotion and feelings. Everything else is simply there to perform.
The reason that many, myself included, do not believe high end speaker cables matter is because when the blind testing starts and the audio jewelry is not longer visible and it is simply about performance and not the emotion or feeling of seeing those purdy cables sitting there then nobody yet can reliably tell the difference.
Bernard
Well-known member
One thing that has not been explicitly stated in this discussion is that if the listener's hearing is bad (e.g. high frequency drop), then they will obviously not hear differences if they exist at the high end. It always amazes me when people state on this forum that they listen to music at deafening levels - sure fire way to mess up your hearing.
In any case, the best advice, as given before, is buy the cheapest cable you can find if you hear no difference.
In any case, the best advice, as given before, is buy the cheapest cable you can find if you hear no difference.
grantc79
Active member
100% agree and I have no problem with anyone spending their money on anything.
After all it is their money and their business.
I'm simply saying make sure you actually hear a difference. Don't let a salesman plug them in and convince you that you are hearing something.
Hell take a friend with you and have your friend plug in a pair and then have them plug in another pair and see if you can hear something different without looking.
If you can and like what you hear then by all means. But don't buy something just because of hype or because high dollar must mean sounds better.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi Grant,
Just read your response to my observations.
Have fun living on your flat earth. It's certainly easier than one that is round.
GG
Just read your response to my observations.
Have fun living on your flat earth. It's certainly easier than one that is round.
GG
grantc79
Active member
If the only way to defend your position is personal attacks on the other person then you really don't have much to offer do you?
Other than some great pictures of all of your audio fluff and jewelry.
I agree with you Grant, while I'm in the camp that cables 'can' sound different but also understand and believe that at times it's more 'perception' than 'reality' !
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
If the only way to defend your position is personal attacks on the other person then you really don't have much to offer do you?
Other than some great pictures of all of your audio fluff and jewelry.
Tom, what do you think?
Bernard
Well-known member
Do you seriously go into an audio store and make a purchase decision based upon listening to the cable in the store, on unfamiliar equipment ? Even double-blind with a friend ?
My friendly ML dealer lends me cables for a week so that I can evaluate them.
What would be your evaluation of this situation: many years ago, when lending me a CDP for evaluation, my dealer also lent me some Cardas Neutral Reference cables for use with the CDP; I was using cheaper Cardas stuff then between my pre and power amps. I was unimpressed with the CDP, but just for the hell of it, plugged in the NR between the pre and power amps. Both my wife (a non-audiophile) and I went "Wow!" in seconds. Should we have then followed up with a blind test ? I listened to that cable for a week and ended up upgrading to it. Later I bought a length of Discovery Signature I/C and could hear no difference between it and the Cardas. Note that while the Discovery was cheaper than the NR, the price still made it "audio jewellery" per your definition.
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My wife can tell instantly when I've made a speaker wire or interconnect change. She will be upstairs and slowly walk down the stairs (in the rear wave) and come downstairs and look at me, turn look at the speakers and say; what have you done this time?
Her hearing is better than mine, that much I will admit to.
grantc79
Active member
If there truly is a difference will that difference only show up on your equipment?
Are you suggesting that the difference between interconnects A & B will show up at home but not in a show room? Same with speaker cables?
My local dealer tried to get me to take some Transparent cables home where he assured me I would hear a huge difference. I told him if there is truly a difference then I'm sure I can hear it in the showroom.
Is that wrong?
A 50,000 dollar pair of Krell Mono's will sound better than a crappy amp on a boat, plane, my room, your room, or anywhere else you choose to listen to it.
A Ferrari will outperform a Kia on a track, on the street, in an oval, and everywhere else.
Better speaker cables should sound better (or at the very least different) than other cables at the shop. If that is the case then bring them home and see if they sound better than what you have.
Gordon
Well-known member
I say let the skeptics be skeptics! That is their decision to live only by numbers and stats. I prefer to let my ears be the judge and my emotion rule the day.
If gear is jewelry for the home, so be it. Many of our systems take a prominent place in our homes. It is as much art work as music makers. I certainly do not want some ugly cable laying across the floor that I have to look at every time I or my guests sit down. I will qualify that to the point the wire has to sound as good as it looks and have tried several. Both inexpensive and expensive. Perhaps it was just my perception, but the WireWorld speaker cable sounded better than the Lowe's outdoor 12 volt cable. The Lowe's did not sound bad, but the WW sounded better.
I have no desire to convert a skeptic. As opposed to the skeptic who must save us all from snake oil, as if they are on a personal crusade. I've more important things to do, like listen to music through my jewelry boxes!
Gordon
If gear is jewelry for the home, so be it. Many of our systems take a prominent place in our homes. It is as much art work as music makers. I certainly do not want some ugly cable laying across the floor that I have to look at every time I or my guests sit down. I will qualify that to the point the wire has to sound as good as it looks and have tried several. Both inexpensive and expensive. Perhaps it was just my perception, but the WireWorld speaker cable sounded better than the Lowe's outdoor 12 volt cable. The Lowe's did not sound bad, but the WW sounded better.
I have no desire to convert a skeptic. As opposed to the skeptic who must save us all from snake oil, as if they are on a personal crusade. I've more important things to do, like listen to music through my jewelry boxes!
Gordon
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
If the only way to defend your position is personal attacks on the other person then you really don't have much to offer do you?
Other than some great pictures of all of your audio fluff and jewelry.
I do have one final comment regarding this gentleman's post. I am approaching 1,000 posts on this wonderful site so I believe I have tried to offer quite a bit on a wide range of topics, including wire.
This gentleman has posted 13 times and is judging me regarding my contributions and / or what I have to offer.
Really.
By the way, forget the emoticon. Your intentions are quite obvious.
GG
An interesting read on blind testing of audio cables.
Mr. Lavigne's initial response may be found in post #37. At no point in the thread does he shy away from the results.
Mike's room: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm
I used to have a link to Mike's gear, but it's now dead. Let's just say that his gear is adequate.
Simply a sample of one, with many other examples of similar results to be found. Having said this, I have a very laissez faire POV as regards how we all enjoy our hobby. If folks believe that cable A is better than cable B (or conversely, that all cables sound the same) in their system, who am I to argue? It's their system, their ears and their money.
Mr. Lavigne's initial response may be found in post #37. At no point in the thread does he shy away from the results.
Mike's room: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm
I used to have a link to Mike's gear, but it's now dead. Let's just say that his gear is adequate.
Simply a sample of one, with many other examples of similar results to be found. Having said this, I have a very laissez faire POV as regards how we all enjoy our hobby. If folks believe that cable A is better than cable B (or conversely, that all cables sound the same) in their system, who am I to argue? It's their system, their ears and their money.
tonepub
Senior Member
Having had the chance to listen to a LOT of cable over the last six years because of my job, I still think that cables do sound different, however, I really see the mega cables as icing on the cake of a great system.
I would always tell someone to start spending money on cable, when everything else in the chain has been optimized first. You'll get a lot more out of a few thousand dollars worth of effective room treatment (and sometimes just a little room rearranging) than a few thousand dollars worth of cable if the other things aren't sorted. And while you're at it, get that big equipment rack or plasma TV out from between the speakers...
A little attention to vibration control and often, just an hour or two really dialing in your turntable (if you play vinyl) can provide some tremendous gains.
But again, for me, the cable is that last 5%. And it's a lot easier to hear the diff if everything else is taken care of first. I always get dissapointed when I hear people talking about how a piece of wire has "transformed" their system.
I've never had that experience. It's always been a subtle difference, but when done right, allows more music through, or a more realistic portrayal of what's going on. That's always the goal for me.
I would always tell someone to start spending money on cable, when everything else in the chain has been optimized first. You'll get a lot more out of a few thousand dollars worth of effective room treatment (and sometimes just a little room rearranging) than a few thousand dollars worth of cable if the other things aren't sorted. And while you're at it, get that big equipment rack or plasma TV out from between the speakers...
A little attention to vibration control and often, just an hour or two really dialing in your turntable (if you play vinyl) can provide some tremendous gains.
But again, for me, the cable is that last 5%. And it's a lot easier to hear the diff if everything else is taken care of first. I always get dissapointed when I hear people talking about how a piece of wire has "transformed" their system.
I've never had that experience. It's always been a subtle difference, but when done right, allows more music through, or a more realistic portrayal of what's going on. That's always the goal for me.
Bernard
Well-known member
You seem to have forgotten that one important word: "SYNERGY". You never listen to a cable alone; you listen to it in combination with your equipment. What sounds great with a dealer's equipment may well sound like crap in your system. Also, a cable that really impresses you in the short run (if you hear a difference, that is) may well tire you on a long-term basis.
I see that there is no convincing you, so I'm done with this thread.
Jungle Jack
Well-known member
Hello,
It seems as consistent as Summer turns to Fall, a new member comes along to enlighten all of us fools about the fallacy of using high quality cables.
This is usually followed by the contention that an amplifier is an amplifier and other pearls of wisdom. Always backed up with ABX testing. I honestly believe some of this is due to jealousy. Perhaps the inability to afford gear that is truly transparent.
Most proponents of this dogma have gear that would make it next to impossible to differentiate these differences in the first place.
I am well aware of the 10,000 Dollar challenge for someone to differentiate amplifiers and cables when tested in "blind" conditions. Many of these "tests"
involve crude switching devices and stressful conditions.
Don't get me wrong, with Solid State amplification, there are not huge differences between well engineered amplifiers with linear output throughout varying impedances. I also do not allocate huge sums of my audio budget to cabling.
I do think that well made precision connectors can make it next to impossible for cables to come loose possibly leading to shorting out amplifiers and speakers. In this case, I believe spending money for WBT connectors to actually be a proactive step similar to surge protection.
Cheers,
ML
It seems as consistent as Summer turns to Fall, a new member comes along to enlighten all of us fools about the fallacy of using high quality cables.
This is usually followed by the contention that an amplifier is an amplifier and other pearls of wisdom. Always backed up with ABX testing. I honestly believe some of this is due to jealousy. Perhaps the inability to afford gear that is truly transparent.
Most proponents of this dogma have gear that would make it next to impossible to differentiate these differences in the first place.
I am well aware of the 10,000 Dollar challenge for someone to differentiate amplifiers and cables when tested in "blind" conditions. Many of these "tests"
involve crude switching devices and stressful conditions.
Don't get me wrong, with Solid State amplification, there are not huge differences between well engineered amplifiers with linear output throughout varying impedances. I also do not allocate huge sums of my audio budget to cabling.
I do think that well made precision connectors can make it next to impossible for cables to come loose possibly leading to shorting out amplifiers and speakers. In this case, I believe spending money for WBT connectors to actually be a proactive step similar to surge protection.
Cheers,
ML
