Sanders Sound System introducing new Hybrid ESL!

[tonepub]

Just talked to Roger today and a set of the monoblocks and his cables are on the way for review.

Anxious to give them a good listen. They will either show up on our website, or in the April issue...

We have quite a few good amps in the studio right now, so I can't wait. Thanks to you guys for pointing this one out!!

 

[Rich]

That's great, Jeff. Looking forward to your impressions. Maybe you and Neil could do a collaborative review.

You should really get Roger to send you his preamp for review too. It is pretty impressive and highly transparent, just like his amps.

Actually, Roger stated he didn't think there was any noticeable difference in sound between his preamp and any well designed (even tube) preamp. I told him I thought I noticed some pretty big differences between my CJ pre and his. He challenged me to do some blind A/B testing to validate for myself whether I was really hearing a difference. He is even shipping me a quality A/B switch with which to do the test. He also graciously extended my trial of the preamp for another two weeks so I could do this test.

I just happen to have an ARC Ref 3 on its way to my house as I write this, so next week I will be doing some A/B testing between the ARC and Sanders Pre and also between my CJ Premier 17LS2 and the Sanders. Should be a fun experiment to see if I can hear the differences that I think I am hearing between the two.

I can't say enough good things about Roger as far as customer service goes. I have never dealt with anyone as intelligent, honest and willing to do whatever they can to satisfy the customer.

 

[Burke]

That's great, Jeff. Looking forward to your impressions. Maybe you and Neil could do a collaborative review.

I would really like to hear what Neil has to say about these amps. When I originally started looking for amps, my first serious thought was Theta Digital Dreadnaught II, but after reading Neil's review of the MC2275 I wanted to look that way as well.

I can't say enough good things about Roger as far as customer service goes. I have never dealt with anyone as intelligent, honest and willing to do whatever they can to satisfy the customer.

Well said.

 

[nsgarch]

I'll second that!

And in speaking with Roger this morning, I learned that he is making every unit HIMSELF! From the ground up, literally.

I can't say enough good things about Roger as far as customer service goes. I have never dealt with anyone as intelligent, honest and willing to do whatever they can to satisfy the customer.

 

[JonFo]

And in speaking with Roger this morning, I learned that he is making every unit HIMSELF! From the ground up, literally.

Niel, really? wow. I thought he outsourced the amp builds to a well-established company using his design. Once manufactured, then Roger's company QA'd each unit and applied any 'finishing touches' before customer shipment.

I read that's how it worked at Innersound, and would doubt he's changed the basic approach. Populating and soldering boards by hand is so last century

 

[nsgarch]

Niel, really? wow. I thought he outsourced the amp builds to a well-established company using his design. Once manufactured, then Roger's company QA'd each unit and applied any 'finishing touches' before customer shipment. I read that's how it worked at Innersound, and would doubt he's changed the basic approach. Populating and soldering boards by hand is so last century

From Roger's mouth to my ears. He even has his own CNC milling machine to cut out the faceplates!

 

[Burke]

The ESL Amp is in the house

I received the ESL Amplifier this morning and about two hours later I was listening. First impressions, Very detailed, there seems to be no sonic signature. It is like it is not there just clean pure power for speakers.

Doing a 110 rewire of the media room this weekend so listening time is as a bit of a premium. we do a more detailed report in a few days.

Thanks Roger for a superb amplifier.

 

[sleepysurf]

Burke, others... any further impressions?

 

[Rich]

Burke, others... any further impressions?

I will say that these amps have no sound of their own -- they simply reproduce whatever is fed to them, and they do it superbly. They sound great at low levels and at ear splitting levels. They do not run out of steam even on the most complex passages. If your preamp and/or source are a little warm, that warmth comes through beautifully. If they are a little hard and edgy, well . . . you get that too. They simple reproduce the signal perfectly, with no sound signature of their own. They also play well with the internal amps on the Summits -- bass notes are clean and tight. They run cool and are dead quiet. I highly recommend them for anyone looking for a top-notch amp for their ESLs. I prefer them over my Sunfire Cinema Grand and my Pass Labs X-350.5! (It is a lot tougher call with the Pass, but the lack of heat generation is a big plus in favor of Roger's amps.)

 

[longhorn]

O.K., O.K., I know I am taking forever on this. As you can imagine, things have been pretty busy around here with a newborn. Not too much time to sleep, much less play with my audio gear.

I haven't had time to do detailed analytical comparisons between the Sanders amps and the Sunfire because I have been busy comparing the Sanders preamp with my CJ preamp and the Meridian. I have already decided I want to keep the amps, so now I need to hurry up and decide if I want to keep the preamp.

The long and short of the amps is: they are terrific. They are absolutely neutral, very clean and very true to the source. With tons of power, they never feel strained and there is never any compression. Even when played really LOUD, the music sounds great. The bass with the Summits is deep and tight, the midrange and highs are just dead-on accurate. Everything sounds like it should. Instruments sound incredibly real. The Sunfire by comparison is just a little darker and not quite as clear and revealing, particularly in the highs. I will elaborate more on this comparison as I have more time to compare these amps directly to the Sunfire and the Pass.

It was interesting to change out the preamps. The Sanders Preamp is quiet, completely neutral and very true to the source. It has no sound of its own that I can detect, but just reproduces the music. Every instrument has its space and everything is CLEAR. Clarity is the word I keep coming back to to describe this preamp. When Cindy first heard it, she said: "Wow, that is really CLEAN." Along those lines, it is incredibly revealing of the upstream components. I thought it was a little bit hard on the edges and lacking in any warmth, but then I decided to switch sources and replaced my RAM modified Oppo 970 with my Marantz SA 11S1. The difference was not subtle. I had never noticed how the Oppo was a little edgy before, but the Marantz was nice and warm and very smooth sounding. This pre reveals everything you put in front of it.

But it just doesn't have that magical liquidity of sound that the tubes bring. When I put the CJ Premier 17 LS2 in the system, the images are fuzzier, things blend together and the soundstage is not so clear, details and nuances not so obvious, but oh that magic midrange and vocals that just melt your heart! If only you could combine the best that both of these preamps have to offer . . . (which is exactly what I think I am going to try to do, perhaps with an ARC REF 3). Sanders is offering a great deal on this pre, but it just doesn't quite have the magic that I am looking for in my two-channel system.

Switching out the preamps made it clear that these amps are just as revealing of what is upstream as Sander's preamp is. It was so easy to detect and compare the positives and negatives of each preamp in the system. Blindfolded, I could have easily guessed that I was listening to an all solid-state system with the Sanders components, but when I had the CJ pre in the system, I would have guessed that I was listening to an all tube system. These amps are just so neutral. They take on the character of whatever the upstream components are. I am interested to hear what Neil (Nsgarch) thinks of them, tube-lover that he is.

I will post more later as I get time to play, and hopefully sometime after the first of the year, I will get Jonathan and Liz over hear to Huntsville and you can hear them for yourself.

How good is his preamp?

Interesting white paper on cable designs...........very common sense approach.

 

[music again]

I just happen to have an ARC Ref 3 on its way to my house as I write this, so next week I will be doing some A/B testing between the ARC and Sanders Pre and also between my CJ Premier 17LS2 and the Sanders. Should be a fun experiment to see if I can hear the differences that I think I am hearing between the two.QUOTE]

Rich,

Have you had a chance to check out the Sanders amp with the ARC REF 3 yet?

Neal,

Have you listended to the Sanders amps?

------------

One point of clarification for me . . .

Which amp(s) are we talking about here:
The Electrostatic Amplifier (2 channel, 330 watts into 8 OHMS, 600 into 4 OHMS), or . . .
ESL Monoblocks (800/1,600 watts)

Would there be a significant difference between these two amps on the Summits?

Is it true both of the above amps run cool, and are not power hogs at idle?

Thanks!

J.M.

(In need of a power amp VERY soon for a new pair of Summit's)

 

[Burke]

One point of clarification for me . . .

Which amp(s) are we talking about here:
The Electrostatic Amplifier (2 channel, 330 watts into 8 OHMS, 600 into 4 OHMS), or . . .
ESL Monoblocks (800/1,600 watts)

Would there be a significant difference between these two amps on the Summits?

Is it true both of the above amps run cool, and are not power hogs at idle?
(In need of a power amp VERY soon for a new pair of Summit's)

J.M.

I run the Electrostatic Amplifier (2 channel, 330 watts into 8 OHMS, 600 into 4 OHMS) into a pair of Summits today. And will be upgrading to a pair of ESL Monoblocks mid Jan. (needed three channels for the HT).
The 2ch Electrostatic amplifier runs cool to the touch all the time. I never turn it off, per Roger's recommendation. Obviously I am happy with mine, since I have more on order.

you list your location as mid west USA, if Chicago is convenient to you. stop over for a listen.

--burke

 

[music again]

J.M.

I run the Electrostatic Amplifier (2 channel, 330 watts into 8 OHMS, 600 into 4 OHMS) into a pair of Summits today. And will be upgrading to a pair of ESL Monoblocks mid Jan. (needed three channels for the HT).
The 2ch Electrostatic amplifier runs cool to the touch all the time. I never turn it off, per Roger's recommendation. Obviously I am happy with mine, since I have more on order.

you list your location as mid west USA, if Chicago is convenient to you. stop over for a listen.

--burke

Burke,

I'd love to but I'm in the Ohio area. Actually we vacationed in Chicago a couple of years ago. Stayed downtown. What a great town! Our headquarters is in Deerfield. Where is that in relation to where you live? I get to Chicago once or twice per year.

Right now I'm only interested in two channel, but heard an old ADS time delay system twenty years ago and still can't forget that sound. The added ambience made the front sound stage so real it was erie!!! At the time we just set a pair of nothing speakers literally on the floor in the back of the room. You didn't even know they were there, but how it effected the front stage . . . . With that said I could see myself adding two side or rear speakers to get the surround effect without the center channel - for "2 channel listening". If that makes sense. It's probably a mortal sin with the hard core two channel crowd).:devil: I'm not sure if 4 channels are possible for movies. Of course I'd have to get a sub, something my wife detests. Actually I started out with the Vantages and a Descent i, and never could get the sub to integrate well in 2 channel, so we decided to ditch the sub, along with the Vantages, and upgrade to the Summits. I am really glad I did! There is a problem with one of the Summit panels and I'll be getting a new set of Summit's in a week or so. Until then I REALLY need a new power amp, as I'm running an old Hafler DH100 and even though I had it tested, I'm not 100% sure it's stable, especially since the Summit's can dip to .70 Ohms!

It's not easy checking out power amps. I had a Parasound Halo A21 in my home last week and thought it projected vocals too far into the room. Other than that is was good, but I wasn't completely sold on it ($1,800). Hence my interest in the Sanders amps.

I'm really considering the Electrostatic Amplifier that you have. At 5.5" high, 17" wide and only 16" deep, and with it not throwing off excessive heat like some of the monster amps, it would fit in my Salamader Synergy cabinet without a problem. A requirement of my wife, unfortunately.

At around $4,000 I should be able to get her to agree to that! Even she agrees that the Summit's are one special set of speakers and are (almost)worth the price. She enjoys the music ALMOST as much as I do now.

So you'll be running the monoblocks on the Summits and the 2 channel Electrostatic amp on the surrounds, and the receiver will drive the center channel . . . correct?

I will be very curious how the monoblocks compare to the 2 channel version. You'll have to post a review after you get it all set up in your system.

GOOD LUCK and enjoy!

Joe M.

 

[Rich]

Rich,

Have you had a chance to check out the Sanders amp with the ARC REF 3 yet?

Joe, yes I have been listening to the Sanders amp with the REF 3, and am enjoying it immensely. I have the Sanders monobloc amps and they do run cool. I have them in a Salamandar rack, as a matter of fact.

With the holidays, I just have not had enough time to spend listening and tweaking and comparing, so I will have to wait until later to give some detailed impressions. But I will say this. Sanders amps seem to be absolutely neutral to me. They have no sound of their own -- they just reproduce what you feed them. This makes it very easy to tell differences in upstream components. They have power to spare at all times, and never sound strained. They never compress or break down in complex passages. They just sound great from the highest highs to the lowest lows, and everything in between. They work great with both the Summit's panel and with it's bass module. I highly recommend them.

The REF 3 is also a great piece. It has exquisite detail and soundstaging, is also very neutral, but has a silky smoothness to it. Where Sanders preamp exhibits unreal clarity but has a slight edginess to it, with the edges of the instrumental images being defined rather sharply, the Ref 3 just smooths things out a little. The images are still clearly defined, but the edge isn't there. Just clear smooth sound, with midrange and vocals to die for. It doesn't sound warm or cold to me, just clear and liquid smooth. I'll post further impressions when I get some time in a week or two.

For those that may be interested, I will be posting my Pass Labs X-350.5 for sale in the next few weeks as well. This is also a great amp, but it just runs too hot for my room.

 

[music again]

Joe, yes I have been listening to the Sanders amp with the REF 3, and am enjoying it immensely. I have the Sanders monobloc amps and they do run cool. I have them in a Salamandar rack, as a matter of fact.

Rich,

So you think that the 2 channel Sanders amp is sufficient for the Summit's?
Would there be a significant difference between the 2 channel version and the mono blocks?

I don't listen to music at ear bleeding levels . . . maybe once in awhile, but for the most part "normal" levels, and a lot of vocals (both male and female, but mostly female), jazz and contemporary stuff.

I really need a power amp very soon, as I mentioned, my replacement Summit's are due in a week or two. I would like to get the power amp first, then a CDP (possibly the Ayre CX-7e, or the Cambridge 840C), then a pre amp (possibly the Cary SLP 05 or the ARC REF 3). Not necessarily right away with the cost being what it is, but the power amp is a necessity right now.

Thoughts from the group? Rich? Burke? Neal? Tone Pub? Tonyc?

THANKS!!!

J.M.

 

[Rich]

So you think that the 2 channel Sanders amp is sufficient for the Summit's?

I think Sanders Sound Systems' stereo ESL Amplifier would be absolutely sufficient for use with the Summits. It can deliver 360 wpc into 8 ohms, over 600 wpc into 4 ohms and exceeds 1000 wpc into 2 ohms! This amp has more than enough power to deliver the goods with the Summits with no stress or strain. You will never drive it to clipping; it will never roll off the highs; and it will handle anything you throw at it with finesse.

Would there be a significant difference between the 2 channel version and the mono blocks?

I cannot definitively answer this question because I have only heard the monoblocs. My guess is that there would not be a significant difference. I expect with the monoblocs the background is quieter, the details are a little more present, and the instrumental timbres and dynamic transients are a little more real. But this is just speculation on my part. I knew I wanted monoblocs, so that is what I got and I didn't even consider the stereo amp.

I would like to get the power amp first, then a CDP (possibly the Ayre CX-7e, or the Cambridge 840C), then a pre amp (possibly the Cary SLP 05 or the ARC REF 3).

My suggestion is to move up the chain with your upgrades. Start with the power amps. Then upgrade your preamp. Then upgrade your source. That way, I think you are really able to hear the differences that the upgrades make. I heard the most difference between different CD players after I had the Ref 3 in place. With the Meridian G68 (which is a great surround sound pre/pro) I just wasn't able to hear huge differences between the CD players that I was able to discern after putting the Ref 3 in the system.

 

[music again]

Rich,

Thank you for the quick response. Although I would love the monoblocks, they're a bit pricy since I need to upgrade pre and source. I am sure they are a great value at $8K but . . .

Dumb question . . . I'm still learning the more esoteric things about this hobby . . .

I have the 2008 Stereophile Buyer's Guide which is a great resource for quick comparisons and pricing. I noticed under the Sander Electrostatic Amplifier there is a dot under the "BRIDGEABLE" column, while the two mono blocks listed do not have the dot. There is another column "BR=BRIDGED/SE=SINGLE ENDED/Comp=COMPLEMENTERY OUTPUT STAGE". The 2 channel amp has "Comp", while the two mono amps have "BR". What does all of this mean?

I know that with some of the BAT pieces you can order them as a stereo amp at a later time, send it back to BAT to convert in to a mono amp, after purchasing another mono amp. Can you do that with the 2 channel Sanders Amp or do you have to buy them as mono only?

Thanks!

Joe M.

 

[Rich]

Joe,

I don't really know the answers to those questions, but I am sure you could call Roger Sanders and he would be happy to discuss them with you. Be careful, though. By the time you get off the phone with him, you will have an ESL amplifier on its way to you for a home audition.

 

[SCompRacer]

Rich,

So you think that the 2 channel Sanders amp is sufficient for the Summit's?

J.M.

I consider a sustained 105dB on a Radio Shack meter ear bleeding, and wore some shooting ear plugs when I did it. The Sanders ESL MK III amp will start to get warm at those high SPL's, and has more to give. And yes, it still sounded fantastic. I have Eros MK III ESL's. I listen mostly at 80-85dB levels.

 

[music again]

Compared to . . . .

I consider a sustained 105dB on a Radio Shack meter ear bleeding, and wore some shooting ear plugs when I did it. The Sanders ESL MK III amp will start to get warm at those high SPL's, and has more to give. And yes, it still sounded fantastic. I have Eros MK III ESL's. I listen mostly at 80-85dB levels.

Thanks for the reply. I'm not so much concerned about how loud the amp will play, but how "good" it will play. I kow there are a lot of Pass Labs, Plinius, BAT, ARC, CJ, etc., on the forum who swear by their amps. The shear size, weight and heat generated by these pieces can be a hinderence, especially when the wife's involved in the decision! I have to admit, the 2 channel Sanders shure "sounds" promising . . . relatively compact, cool running AND from what I'm seeing on this thread, plenty of power, dynamics, and musical "truth".

Joe