Sanders Sound System introducing new Hybrid ESL!

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sleepysurf

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Found this announcement on 6moons...

"By popular demand, Roger Sanders is back in the speaker business. Sanders Sound Systems will unveil the latest design of his renowned electrostatic speakers in January 2008 at T.H.E. Show. The new model will feature a modular construction, improved electrostatic panels and woofer enclosures, a dedicated electronic crossover and a 600 watt/channel bass amplifier, all in a stylishly-designed, high-WAF package. This integrated speaker system will be a worthy anchor of a reference-level high-end audio system of the highest performance possible."
Roger was demo'ing his amps at RMAF with an older Innersound Eros ESL... entire setup sounded superb. Will be interesting to see what his new version offers (likely at a much higher price point than the ML Summits).
 
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Roger was demo'ing his amps at RMAF with an older Innersound Eros ESL...


Alan, I would interested in hearing more about your impressions of his new amps.

It's interesting that on a forum dedicated to ESL's, so few of us have any of his amps, which are designed for ESL duties.


Cool news about another ESL hybrid coming down the road. The fact that he uses active crossovers is encouraging. Actually, there's a question there, is it indeed fully active?
 
Very interesting indeed. When I was at the show I was asking him about the assetts of Innersound and whether or not anyone would obtain the I.P. He was very closed mouthed about specifics, but did hint that the line would be revitalized in a different form. I'd be interested in hearing these.

Jon, as far as the amps go... I have it on good authority that a very prominent member of this forum is enjoying a no cost trial of the Sanders amps as I write this. I don't want to be the spoiler, I imagine that he'll be posting his impressions here before long.

Here is the setup Alan was talking about at RMAF and a look inside one of the monoblock amps... Can you say Torroid Transformer? Look at the size of that monster.
 

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Jon, as far as the amps go... I have it on good authority that a very prominent member of this forum is enjoying a no cost trial of the Sanders amps as I write this. I don't want to be the spoiler, I imagine that he'll be posting his impressions here before long.

Gee, I wonder who that could be? :devil: <evil chuckle>

As we speak, a pair of Sanders Sound monoblocs and preamp are headed my way via FedEx. I will most definitely be posting my impressions and comparing them with my Pass, Sunfire and CJ tube gear. It may take me a little while to get it all done, though. Things just got a little busier in the Jackson household.
 
Fascinating, Very Fascinating...

Gee, I wonder who that could be? :devil: <evil chuckle>

As we speak, a pair of Sanders Sound monoblocs and preamp are headed my way via FedEx. I will most definitely be posting my impressions and comparing them with my Pass, Sunfire and CJ tube gear. It may take me a little while to get it all done, though. Things just got a little busier in the Jackson household.

Rich,

I'm looking forward to your review of the Sanders Sound monoblocks and preamps. :clap: I have read very up lifting things regarding Sanders gear... More photo's would be thrilling as well. :music:
 
Gee, I wonder who that could be? :devil: <evil chuckle>

As we speak, a pair of Sanders Sound monoblocs and preamp are headed my way via FedEx. I will most definitely be posting my impressions and comparing them with my Pass, Sunfire and CJ tube gear. It may take me a little while to get it all done, though. Things just got a little busier in the Jackson household.

Ah, maybe my visit to Alabama will come sooner than later (JK I know you guys are swamped).

Now, if you get too busy to do the audition, let me know, I can help by hooking them up to my power sucking Monoliths :D

Very interested in your impressions Rich.
 
Very interesting indeed. When I was at the show I was asking him about the assetts of Innersound and whether or not anyone would obtain the I.P. He was very closed mouthed about specifics, but did hint that the line would be revitalized in a different form. I'd be interested in hearing these.

Jon, as far as the amps go... I have it on good authority that a very prominent member of this forum is enjoying a no cost trial of the Sanders amps as I write this. I don't want to be the spoiler, I imagine that he'll be posting his impressions here before long.

Here is the setup Alan was talking about at RMAF and a look inside one of the monoblock amps... Can you say Torroid Transformer? Look at the size of that monster.

Cool, thanks for extra pics and info Tim.

Those amps sure have current capability with that toroid and all those bipolar output transistors (30+ IIRC) per channel.

Rich's test should be informative, as he has Sunfires as well to compare.
 
Ah, maybe my visit to Alabama will come sooner than later (JK I know you guys are swamped).

I can't wait to get you guys over here, but yes we are a little swamped right now. Hopefully soon, though.


Now, if you get too busy to do the audition, let me know, I can help by hooking them up to my power sucking Monoliths :D

You realize I am getting the monoblocs, which are rated at 800 watts RMS into 8 ohms and 1600 watts RMS into 4 ohms. I think they could handle your Monoliths just fine.


Very interested in your impressions Rich.
Can't wait to get them in for the audition. It will be interesting to see how they sound compared to the Pass and the Sunfire.
 
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You realize I am getting the monoblocs, which are rated at 800 watts RMS into 8 ohms and 1600 watts RMS into 4 ohms. I think they could handle your Monoliths just fine.
...

Oh man, that's sweet, so two DPR-1000's, or two ESL-800's?

That product line is confusing, on the one hand the feature the DPR and i300 type amps (http://www.innersound.net/dpramplifiers.html)
But then they also have entries for the ESL line (http://www.innersound.net/esl800over.html)

Hard to know what's 'current' in the product line. Not that it matters to much, I understand they're all great amps.

Man, I'm green with envy.

BTW- for everyone wondering what the deal is about these amps, do yourselves a favor and read this excellent white paper by Roger Sanders: http://www.innersound.net/esl800whitepap.html
 
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Oh man, that's sweet, so two DPR-1000's, or two ESL-800's?

Now he just calls them the ESL Monobloc amps (formerly the ESL 800's). That's what I am getting. The DPR-1000's are now called the Kilowatt Monobloc amps, and they are wayyyy more expensive and designed more for magnetic speakers than ESLs.

His company is no longer Innersound and those web links you posted are outdated. His new company is called Sanders Sound Systems. I encourage everyone to check out his website at:

http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/

His white papers on ESL amps and on cables make for interesting reading.

In line with his reputation for outstanding customer service, he returned my email with a phone call immediately and agreed to ship the amps and preamp for a risk-free home trial with return shipping paid if I am not completely satisfied. He also offered me a great deal on the combo if I purchase the monos with the pre. So far, I am impressed. Can't wait to get the gear.
 
Rich, you can't find better manufacturer confidence than a no-cost audition!! I've kinda had my eye on his amps if I ever go back to ss for my stats ;-) Let's face it, tubes are more hassle but so far still sound best to me. But I'm open minded and if anyone can do it, Roger can! So I too am interested in your impressions. How long do you get to keep them before you have to decide, and do you have a toobie for comparison?
Neil
 
Neil,

He didn't even give me a deadline for return, although I pretty much assume 30 days is expected. He just said that under no circumstances would he want to sell me a product that I wasn't absolutely sure I was 100% satisfied with. Can't argue with that.

And yes, I do have a Conrad Johnson 17LS2 Preamp and Premier 140 Amp to compare to. I agree with you that tubes are more of a hassle, but I love 'em too. I just don't need the excess heat in this listening room and Roger's amps are supposed to run cool and sound great so that is why I am trying them out. I will do my best to describe the comparisons between the esl monoblocs and Roger's preamp, and my meridian pre with Sunfire and with Pass Labs, and also the CJ tube pre and amps.
 
..........It's interesting that on a forum dedicated to ESL's, so few of us have any of his amps, which are designed for ESL duties...........
Probably because so many of us like "toobes" with our MLs.
 
OK Rich, put down the turkey and give us the scoop on these amps :D

How do they compare to the Sunfire's?
 
O.K., O.K., I know I am taking forever on this. As you can imagine, things have been pretty busy around here with a newborn. Not too much time to sleep, much less play with my audio gear.

I haven't had time to do detailed analytical comparisons between the Sanders amps and the Sunfire because I have been busy comparing the Sanders preamp with my CJ preamp and the Meridian. I have already decided I want to keep the amps, so now I need to hurry up and decide if I want to keep the preamp.

The long and short of the amps is: they are terrific. They are absolutely neutral, very clean and very true to the source. With tons of power, they never feel strained and there is never any compression. Even when played really LOUD, the music sounds great. The bass with the Summits is deep and tight, the midrange and highs are just dead-on accurate. Everything sounds like it should. Instruments sound incredibly real. The Sunfire by comparison is just a little darker and not quite as clear and revealing, particularly in the highs. I will elaborate more on this comparison as I have more time to compare these amps directly to the Sunfire and the Pass.

It was interesting to change out the preamps. The Sanders Preamp is quiet, completely neutral and very true to the source. It has no sound of its own that I can detect, but just reproduces the music. Every instrument has its space and everything is CLEAR. Clarity is the word I keep coming back to to describe this preamp. When Cindy first heard it, she said: "Wow, that is really CLEAN." Along those lines, it is incredibly revealing of the upstream components. I thought it was a little bit hard on the edges and lacking in any warmth, but then I decided to switch sources and replaced my RAM modified Oppo 970 with my Marantz SA 11S1. The difference was not subtle. I had never noticed how the Oppo was a little edgy before, but the Marantz was nice and warm and very smooth sounding. This pre reveals everything you put in front of it.

But it just doesn't have that magical liquidity of sound that the tubes bring. When I put the CJ Premier 17 LS2 in the system, the images are fuzzier, things blend together and the soundstage is not so clear, details and nuances not so obvious, but oh that magic midrange and vocals that just melt your heart! If only you could combine the best that both of these preamps have to offer . . . (which is exactly what I think I am going to try to do, perhaps with an ARC REF 3). Sanders is offering a great deal on this pre, but it just doesn't quite have the magic that I am looking for in my two-channel system.

Switching out the preamps made it clear that these amps are just as revealing of what is upstream as Sander's preamp is. It was so easy to detect and compare the positives and negatives of each preamp in the system. Blindfolded, I could have easily guessed that I was listening to an all solid-state system with the Sanders components, but when I had the CJ pre in the system, I would have guessed that I was listening to an all tube system. These amps are just so neutral. They take on the character of whatever the upstream components are. I am interested to hear what Neil (Nsgarch) thinks of them, tube-lover that he is.

I will post more later as I get time to play, and hopefully sometime after the first of the year, I will get Jonathan and Liz over hear to Huntsville and you can hear them for yourself.
 
I was told from a very reliable source that the output transistors he talks about in these amps are the same ones used in the CJ premier 350 and the new Ayre Monoblocks.... looks like a great pair of amps!!

I've heard the InnerSound speakers in the past, very good stuff!
 
O.K., O.K., I know I am taking forever on this. As you can imagine, things have been pretty busy around here with a newborn. Not too much time to sleep, much less play with my audio gear. ...

Rich, I bet you're busy, I'm actually impressed you managed this much so far. Thanks for the details provided.

I haven't had time to do detailed analytical comparisons between the Sanders amps and the Sunfire because I have been busy comparing the Sanders preamp with my CJ preamp and the Meridian. I have already decided I want to keep the amps, so now I need to hurry up and decide if I want to keep the preamp.

The long and short of the amps is: they are terrific. They are absolutely neutral, very clean and very true to the source. With tons of power, they never feel strained and there is never any compression. Even when played really LOUD, the music sounds great. The bass with the Summits is deep and tight, the midrange and highs are just dead-on accurate. Everything sounds like it should. Instruments sound incredibly real. The Sunfire by comparison is just a little darker and not quite as clear and revealing, particularly in the highs. I will elaborate more on this comparison as I have more time to compare these amps directly to the Sunfire and the Pass....

Excellent news Rich. I'm also thinking that these amps are in my future, especially if they noticeably improve on the Sunfire. I think either of them can supply the voltage and current the speakers need, although it seems that the Sanders amp might do it with more 'control' and accuracy. Lack of side effects from the tracking down converter might be one reason. I'd love to bench test both feeding an ESL and really see what's going on.


I'm really curious to try them in my setup, as I run fully active ML’s and direct drive the ESL transformer (although lately, I've run the Sunfire on the Voltage source, which adds a 1 Ohm resistance to the output). The direct coupling to the transformer (and its associated highly capacitive load) is a pretty tall order for an amp to deal with. And the Sanders are designed for it, so it should be neutral across the frequency range and even in its power curve.


I will post more later as I get time to play, and hopefully sometime after the first of the year, I will get Jonathan and Liz over here to Huntsville and you can hear them for yourself.

Looking forward to more of your feedback and of course, to an opportunity to see you guys again and hear your system.

Man, hanging on these boards can get expensive. Now you've got me wound up and looking at three new amps :D
 
Man, hanging on these boards can get expensive. Now you've got me wound up and looking at three new amps :D

Rich,

Based on your review and information on the website I called Rodger this evening and a new ESL amplifier is headed my way. The Summits deserved a Christmas present because they have been very good.

Looking forward to seeing how it compares to the Sunfire Symphonic Reference it will replace.

Rodger was just a pleasure to talk to and is very customer oriented. This was pleasure compared to other vendors.

--burke
 
Burke, I think you will be very impressed. Roger's amps are very transparent. They don't add a sound of their own, but they faithfully reproduce what is given them. Hope you have good upstream components. ;)
 
I agree with Rich. I have one of Sanders ESL MK III amps and it does a stellar job on magnetic speakers and panels. Among the many improvements in his MK III amps, the larger epoxy encased and shielded Toroidal transformers are more powerful and quieter than the earlier MK II amps.

Roger is knowledgeable, friendly, and helpful with top notch customer service. When I upgraded to Eros MK III speakers, they came with a Black face active crossover bass amp. He swapped the Silver faceplate on my Sanders MK III ESL amp for a Black one, at no charge.
 
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