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Shredder

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Aug 7, 2007
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Location
Evergreen, Colorado
Hey. This is my first post here, although I have been lurking for awhile.

My wife and I are adding a large (approx. 22' x 22') living room addition to our very rustic log house. I intend to place my ML Requests (powered by a Classe CAP-150) in this room (currently in too small room). For aesthetic reasons, the addition will have a very high ceiling (height not yet determined). The wall behind the speakers will be all log; one wall will be mostly glass, although the speakers will be placed 4-6' from the side walls and I expect the wood to extend 4'-6' on the side w/glass so that there won't be any glass even with the speaker on the side.

Because we have just started the design process (meet with architect tonight), I have some leeway to design the room to get the most from the Requests. Treatments are probably not an option.

Any ideas on designing the room for optimal sound? Is the high ceiling a problem? Are the logs a problem? Any input will be much appreciated.
 
Well speaking as an architect and sterophile if you made the room 22' x 22' x 22' you could have the worst possible acoustics ever, that of a cube. Frequency nodes would get reinforced resulting in one note bass and unwanted emphasis of other frequencies at random.

Rooms based on the ratios of "Golden Section" ("shoe box" like proportions) do much better (do a search).

The cathedral ceilings are hit or miss according to our "members section", again unpredictable consequences.

I think the log walls are an idea material selection, they might let you get away with things which would be unthinkable in other circumstances.

I had my start drawing up log homes in 1983, I still love them.
 
Shredder,

I don't see the high ceiling being a problem, in fact it will reduce or eliminate some of the early reflections which can smear the imaging.

The logs may act as a diffuser scattering the sound behind the electrostatic panels so no big deal there either.

22 x 22 is a nice size room however it is a square and that will cause some strong standing waves. The best thing you can do is to place the speakers and listening chair/sofa in the most desirable position you can.

From my past experience using these speakers and a large (24 x 32 cathedral ceiling) and small room (14 x 17 part cathedral ceiling), place the ReQuests at about 8 to 9 feet apart (center to center) leaving 6.5 feet on each side to the side walls. In order to use that much space between the speaker and side wall, make sure to have the front edge of the speaker at least 4 to 4 1/2 feet from the wall behind them. This should give very good imaging and allow the larger side space to fill in nicely. That is you should hear the soundstage extend quite a bit to the outside of each speaker.

As far as the seating position, I recommend you have your head at about 8 to 11 feet from the front of the stat panels.

Worse case if you use the 11 feet as the distance between your head and the front of the stat panel, leaves approximately 6.5 feet behind you. This is good because the distance would allow the reflected signal off the rear wall to attenuate enough so that the reflection does not add to or smear the imaging from the signal in front of you. What I recommend: 9' apart, center to center, speakers 4 1/2' from wall behind, seating 10 feet from the front edge of stat panel, with approximately 7 1/2' behind your head to the rear wall. Do not sit any closer to the rear wall than 6' or you will hear to much reverberant or reflected signal off the rear wall. If you have to position your sofa closer to the rear wall than 6', use a lot of absorptive product to reduce reflections.

This would be a great starting position to model from. Lunchtime...for now...

Sam
 
Wow, you guys know your stuff.

I looked up "Golden Section" and found lots of speaker placement instruction, but not much re: optimal listening room.

Will proper speaker placement offset problems created by cube? This size room does allow speakers to be placed far from walls.

Would 20' x 24' make a difference? Any idea what would be optimal? I have a lot of leeway at this point.

The ceiling won't be 22'. What would be optimal?

Thanks a ton.
 
Oh, one other factor. There will be a dining room (approx. 12x 14-16) along the back of the room. Thus, approx. 14-16 feet of the back wall will be 34-40' bcak while the remainder just 22-24 or whatever. Is that a problem?
 
Speaker and seating placement is determined according to what is acceptable if it is a living space too.

For seating position, the 38% rule is what is used to try to get the best sound and get as little room effect from room modes. So with your 22 ft room, you would want to sit approx 8.3ft from the rear wall.

All surfaces in a room have an affect on the sound, no matter what the distance is. There are many recommended ratio's for room size that people who do acoustical spaces should be very familiar with.

And no matter what the room size, shape, etc. the only way to get the best sound is with treatments. Now you said treatments are not possible, so you will have to give up something there. But there are many treatments that can be done which will look as they are part of the room and not your normal recording studio look.

Like others said here a room 22 x 22 will have so many room mode issues. If someone is building it who is familiar with acoustics, they should know all of this and avoid this size.
 
Wow, you guys know your stuff.

I looked up "Golden Section" and found lots of speaker placement instruction, but not much re: optimal listening room.

Will proper speaker placement offset problems created by cube? This size room does allow speakers to be placed far from walls.

Would 20' x 24' make a difference? Any idea what would be optimal? I have a lot of leeway at this point.

The ceiling won't be 22'. What would be optimal?

Thanks a ton.

Optimal Listening room...
This is a huge topic...Best thing to do is to keep using the search function for a info as well as question us. There are a lot of friendly and knowledgeable people here that are very willing to help out. Acoustics is mathematical and scientific, general acoustic corrections are not to bad as long as you know some basics.

By the way, a 22' ceiling with no acoustic treatment would present its own problem and that would be late reflections which would really mess up the quality of the system. At this dimension we're probably talking about moving from reverberant reflections to almost an early echo.

Every room is a challenge especially if it is shared by other family needs, in other words, it is not dedicated to audio/video equipment for the sole purpose of maximizing the reproduction of music or video playback.

Proper speaker placement reduces undesirable effects due to room dimensions but only to a certain degree and at certain frequencies...it can also increase other frequencies depending on the wavelength...you will have much more to deal with especially in a perfectly square room of 22 x 22 x 8 so try to avoid those dimension that are square.

As far as the wall behind you opening up to the room behind, yes it will have some effect but should not be to big a deal. I knew someone who had a large closet against the rear wall behind the listener. They complained about a noticeable peak in the mid bass frequencies. It turns out that the closet had its own standing wave based on the wavelength of the offending frequency causing a peak. If it were me I would put up a heavy drape which could be easily opened and closed. This will reduce echo from that room back into the main listening room. That room will have its own standing waves which could be detected if you're a critical listener. If you can't use a drape, a large portable absorption panel could be positioned behind the listening sofa to reduce any sound from the back.

There are better room dimensions which are more conducive to a better response that others and you have started your research by the search criteria that Kach22i provided. That is a great start but it also implies that you are starting to build a room from scratch. Keep in mind that you can get reasonable results from a regular room with acoustic treatment, just try to stay away from perfect squares. Most of us have to deal with what we currently have in the house to use and go from there. A great many times this means researching, calling acoustic control companies for advice and using their products to tame the offending reflections or standing waves to a minimum. Do another search here for room acoustics or acoustic treatments and read. Try this for starts: Room acoustics

20 x 24 would make a difference but not much. You can get away with those dimensions if you utilize some acoustic panels in strategic spots. Ceiling height, keep it around 8 to 10' for a good treatable height. Go with a acoustic companies recommendations for treatment, should be minimal, perhaps a few ceiling panels at the early reflection points and that should be it for the ceiling. Budget about $1 - $2K for some acoustic room treatments. Same goes for the first reflections of the side walls too. Don't forget the panel behind your listening position. The link above in the previous paragraph has a few good links to acoustic company websites.

Recomendation:
Start by positioning the speakers and listening sofa first. Listen for a while and experiment by moving the speakers and chair around some, six inches forward, backward, side to side. Stay out of the front and rear 1/5 of the room and you should be able to keep things listenable. Read some of the threads in this site and get some ideas. Don't get to squirley with all the technical data or products, keep it simple for now. Then call up some acoustic treatment places recommended in this forum and get some advice.

If I may quote Roberto, "Happy Listening"
Sam
 
Lots of good ideas and information. My opinion is you can't polish a turd and should start with the right portions and fine tune it with room treatments. Even experts following all the rules can get really odd things poping up, it's both art and science.

From an old post:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=532&page=2&highlight=golden+ratio
Doing a little math exercise........................
14 feet wide room X 1.618 = 22.652 feet
22.652 long room X .618 = 13.99 or 14 feet
Golly gee, it is possible to learn something new everyday. :)

Question:
Would you consider a 17.25' x 27.9' room (same SF based on Golden Ratio)?

17.25 x 27.9 = 481

22' x 22' = 484
 
Tons more great input. Thanks.

Would definitely consider 17.25 x 27.9. Actually, it would make the build a little easier given the slope of the hill where this will be built. With those dimensions, however, will I be able to get the speakers far enough from the side walls?

The ceiling will likely rise in the middle. If it starts at 8 and gets higher, will a couple of ceiling panels still be sufficient?

Thanks again. You are all quite the amazing resource.
 
Would definitely consider 17.25 x 27.9. Actually, it would make the build a little easier given the slope of the hill where this will be built. With those dimensions, however, will I be able to get the speakers far enough from the side walls?

Yes. Positioning them on the 17.25' wall that leaves about 4 to 5' on each side. If you space the speakers 8 to 9' apart, that's plenty of room.

The ceiling will likely rise in the middle. If it starts at 8 and gets higher, will a couple of ceiling panels still be sufficient?

Yes, however we are talking about acoustic panels not 12" square ceiling tiles that you staple to firring strips. The acoustic panels will most likely be decorative fabric covered 2' x 4' and about 2" thick. Mounting these flush to the ceiling, not hanging.
 
Shredder,

I just noticed that you are in Evergreen. I'm in suburban Denver (Thornton). I think that makes about 4 of us in the club from the Denver area - we should schedule a meet sometime and certainly hook up for the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest.

One other thing you might need to be aware of depending on where you are building. I'd check in with Jim Powers at Martin Logan concerning the effect of your elevation on the performance of your ReQuests. I once heard that anything over 7000' can be problematic. Do you know the elevation at your site?
 
Shredder,

I just noticed that you are in Evergreen. I'm in suburban Denver (Thornton). I think that makes about 4 of us in the club from the Denver area - we should schedule a meet sometime and certainly hook up for the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest.

Good idea. When?

One other thing you might need to be aware of depending on where you are building. I'd check in with Jim Powers at Martin Logan concerning the effect of your elevation on the performance of your ReQuests. I once heard that anything over 7000' can be problematic. Do you know the elevation at your site?

I will check with him. I live at about 8,500. However, I have had the speakers for ten years and I think they perform pretty well, especially given the limitations of my room.
 
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