random q's from a noobie prospective buyer

[jk319]

Hi all, first-time poster here. So I apologize for some very random, and possibly esoteric questions.

I recently started auditioning numerous speakers (numerous models within 7 different brands so far), and have decided that the Vantages are my favorites so far at 5k or less. They do SO much SO right, however, I find that the bass/mid-bass can be a bit boomy at times. I've listened to them at multiple stores with various amplification. I find that perhaps the better-valued Vistas are even more boomy.

1) Does anyone ever use some sort of port-bung that could possibly alleviate this singular complaint I might have? Perhaps its recommended against here?

2) Will the addition of a high quality sub, in some way, alleviate some of this so-called boominess? (Im guessing not, since I think* its occuring above a sub's typical range). I know it could be the room, set-up, etc, I just assume that the showrooms must have their hi-end items dialed in. I do regret not playing with some of the bass trims, but like I said, I perhaps too trustingly assumed that the set-up was optimal.

3) Is the difference between Vista and Vantage only the amplification? (Well, I do see that the Vantage's impedance drops slightly lower, sensitivity is higher, freq response and x-over point is lower). I find it curious that with the amp built in, the woofer's cabinet is actually smaller.

4) As Im looking for my first hi-quality speakers ever, Im incessantly over-cramming my head with speaker information. I noticed on the avguide's how-to section, that matching speakers would ideally have the same x-over, if not sloping as well. I see that the Stage has the same low x-over as the Vista at 450hz. Is this nit-picking? Vantage w/ stage is going to be better, regardless of matching x-over, just due to better quality, correct?

5) Back to subs... anyone here ever match their ML's with a REL? (Maybe im not supposed to mention any other brands, sorry admins, but I am very curious about the Neutronik connection in getting the best possible match with new ML's.)

oh well, I think that's it for now (!?). sincerely, a very jealous man, jk319

 

[roberto]

Hi all, first-time poster here. So I apologize for some very random, and possibly esoteric questions.

I recently started auditioning numerous speakers (numerous models within 7 different brands so far), and have decided that the Vantages are my favorites so far at 5k or less. They do SO much SO right, however, I find that the bass/mid-bass can be a bit boomy at times. I've listened to them at multiple stores with various amplification. I find that perhaps the better-valued Vistas are even more boomy.

1) Does anyone ever use some sort of port-bung that could possibly alleviate this singular complaint I might have? Perhaps its recommended against here?

2) Will the addition of a high quality sub, in some way, alleviate some of this so-called boominess? (Im guessing not, since I think* its occuring above a sub's typical range). I know it could be the room, set-up, etc, I just assume that the showrooms must have their hi-end items dialed in. I do regret not playing with some of the bass trims, but like I said, I perhaps too trustingly assumed that the set-up was optimal.

3) Is the difference between Vista and Vantage only the amplification? (Well, I do see that the Vantage's impedance drops slightly lower, sensitivity is higher, freq response and x-over point is lower). I find it curious that with the amp built in, the woofer's cabinet is actually smaller.

4) As Im looking for my first hi-quality speakers ever, Im incessantly over-cramming my head with speaker information. I noticed on the avguide's how-to section, that matching speakers would ideally have the same x-over, if not sloping as well. I see that the Stage has the same low x-over as the Vista at 450hz. Is this nit-picking? Vantage w/ stage is going to be better, regardless of matching x-over, just due to better quality, correct?

5) Back to subs... anyone here ever match their ML's with a REL? (Maybe im not supposed to mention any other brands, sorry admins, but I am very curious about the Neutronik connection in getting the best possible match with new ML's.)

oh well, I think that's it for now (!?). sincerely, a very jealous man, jk319

Hola and welcome to the forum jk319. I think you haven´t look at the back of the Vantages, you have a bass control at 35Hz +- 10dBs!!! so you can bring down that boominess that you don´t like at your pleasant level. I am playing with mines now, and I think that they have very good woofers/panel integration. I can not hear the notch of the woofers and panels interaction. In some older models you could listen this minor flaw. You have 400 watts amps (200W/ch) for clean bass. Remember that the set up for them is very critical and the need of good electronics is a must to be with them. For stereo music, I don´t think that a sub is a must, but it is for 5.1 LFE. Try a ML Grotto sub. Everything it is a matter of liking. I do like ML subs very much also. I do know that there are great good sounding subs too. Trust your ears and liking and buy the one that you like most. Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[eknuds01]

I'll echo Roberto's words:

You can adjust the bass with the newer, better, ML on the speakers. This is not the case for all ML speakers. I have the Aerius i, for example, and there's no external adjustment on the speaker.

Cosmetically there's very little difference between the Vista and Vantage. The vantages might have built in powered subs. (someone else here can tell you this for sure). From ML's website it says the Vantages have a 200 W woofer amp output. It doesn't say the same thing for the Vista. As such, if you already have a sub, you can probably go 'down' to the Vistas.

There's also a differene between their sensitivities. Rumor has it that ESL speakers are somewhat difficult to drive. But if you can a decent enough amp, you'll be fine.

I suppose adding a sub would relieve the Vantage's of some of the burden when producing the lows (again, I am assuming they have powered subs). And the ML subs are certainly up to the task.

 

[jk319]

Thanks for the input

Yes, Im fully aware of the bass trim dial. That's what I was referring to earlier. But, next time I will actually play with it, heh. Have you guys ever heard of anyone using a port bung on an ML speaker? Just curious.

I don't even want to talk about electronics. But, I could be leaning toward the arcam 350 receiver. Too clean for such clean speakers? No hdmi or room correction, but I don't have a hi-def player yet anyways. Perhaps Id buy a new processor a few years from now when all kinds of dusts have settled.

cheerio, jk

 

[Charliemike]

Yes, Im fully aware of the bass trim dial. That's what I was referring to earlier. But, next time I will actually play with it, heh. Have you guys ever heard of anyone using a port bung on an ML speaker? Just curious.

I don't even want to talk about electronics. But, I could be leaning toward the arcam 350 receiver. Too clean for such clean speakers? No hdmi or room correction, but I don't have a hi-def player yet anyways. Perhaps Id buy a new processor a few years from now when all kinds of dusts have settled.

cheerio, jk

Woof ... For $2k I would think there are other options that provide HDMI and room correction.

 

[ralflar]

JK,

If you decide to buy I think you'll like this place, but not as much as you will like your Logans .

1) I wondered about that myself because I don't like bass reflex systems. I still remember stuffing stone wool into the ports of a pair of Magnats back in the 80s.

2) It depends. Using dual subs with a low order active crossover at 60Hz or so, I'd say Yes. Without an active crossover, most likely not.

3) Same panel, same woofer diameter. Active amplification for better control. Different x-over. Volume control for the bass like Roberto mentioned.

4) I have no idea - I'm not really into home theater yet.

5) Not me.

Regarding the AVR350: I believe it would drive Vistas or Vantages well. This piece gets very good reviews; some say it is the best sounding multi-channel receiver in its price range, even for stereo. I have not heard it myself, though. I tend to believe those claims, because the Arcam player I have sounds so musical and enjoyable.

 

[jk319]

Thanks raflar and company

Thanks for the tip on low-order active x-over subs. Regarding electronics I've also seen some fair prices today on NAD separates at a few on-line sites including audiogon. Anyone run ML's with NAD? Also saw some Vantages selling for $3600? In cherry? mmmmmm. Anyone ever hear of horror stories via audiogon? I digress...

Anyways, thanks again everybody. Appreciate it.

 

[Charliemike]

Thanks for the tip on low-order active x-over subs. Regarding electronics I've also seen some fair prices today on NAD separates at a few on-line sites including audiogon. Anyone run ML's with NAD? Also saw some Vantages selling for $3600? In cherry? mmmmmm. Anyone ever hear of horror stories via audiogon? I digress...

Anyways, thanks again everybody. Appreciate it.

Someone else here was posting about their NADs *stifles giggle*

Seriously though I think they were looking at the C162/C372 combo. I had a long look at them but went with a 5ch system instead.

 

[jk319]

I was checking out the t163 + t973 for around 2k total. (7.1)

What so funny anyways ?! lol

 

[Charliemike]

I was checking out the t163 + t973 for around 2k total. (7.1)

What so funny anyways ?! lol

Just that I was saying NADs ... you know, nads ... go-nads ...

OH FORGET IT!

 

[Joey_V]

JK!

1. Of course you can stuff the port, but you mess with the native tune.
2. You can add a sub, but that's not going to get rid of the boominess... the room is the issue so if you have the Vantage, play with the eq.
3. The difference between the Vantage and the Vista are several. For one, the Vista is a non-powered speaker, meaning the woofer is not amped while the Vantage has an amp... this will alleviate your main amp from having to power the panel and the woofer... this means you might be able to get away with some SET tube amps. Also, the Vantage has a much sturdier woofer, just look at the woofer surround and pictures of the magnet and basket.... a woofer that digs for sure. Also, the Vista has a regular port while the Vantage is slot ported.... the difference is in the bass as the Vantage does not have the propensity to "chuff" at higher bass volumes.
4. If the Summit can match with the Stage, the Vantage and Vista will equally match with the Stage despite the xo difference.
5. You can go with REL, but with the new ML subs why would you? Also, other subs to choose from are the JL Audio subs, Velodyne DD series, and the mighty yet nimble WB Torus. Either way, I will recommend SMS-1 to augment whichever non-Velo DD sub you get.

Welcome to the club... and as fun as this club is, the ML's will still be "funner" as Ralfar said!

Joey
:welcome:

 

[jk319]

Thanks for the welcome

All of those subs are sooo expensive, right? I guess I could spend a bit more and get a "modest" DD sub. The Rel is the flatest (to my ears) of the subs Ive listened to, but I havent auditioned ML, DD, or egads the JL subs. The Rel has a "Neutronik" connection (hi-level) that allows it to play totally in phase with the mains. Im just looking for a musical sub that would want to help (wistfully imagining here) my new Martin Logans!

Due to budget constraints, and the fact this will be a 50/50 HT + Music system, I may "downgrade" to Vistas, and get a sub. Actually, typing here.... man, I don't think I can do the Vantages. (sigh). Well, wish me luck!

 

[lugano]

The Rel is the flatest (to my ears) of the subs Ive listened to, but I havent auditioned ML, DD, or egads the JL subs. The Rel has a "Neutronik" connection (hi-level) that allows it to play totally in phase with the mains.

I use a REL sub with my Martin Logans and I am very happy with it. The Neutrik connection is IMHO the easiest way to connect a sub, and REL's philosophy about leaving the speakers alone to receive the full music signal fits my logic.

 

[Joey_V]

All of those subs are sooo expensive, right? I guess I could spend a bit more and get a "modest" DD sub. The Rel is the flatest (to my ears) of the subs Ive listened to, but I havent auditioned ML, DD, or egads the JL subs. The Rel has a "Neutronik" connection (hi-level) that allows it to play totally in phase with the mains. Im just looking for a musical sub that would want to help (wistfully imagining here) my new Martin Logans!

Due to budget constraints, and the fact this will be a 50/50 HT + Music system, I may "downgrade" to Vistas, and get a sub. Actually, typing here.... man, I don't think I can do the Vantages. (sigh). Well, wish me luck!

DD would be the way to go as you dont have to spend extra for the SMS... but going with an ML sub or REL with SMS is good too.

You need SMS.

 

[jk319]

thanks

lugano, which rel do you have? The one I listened to was the r305.

Talking about NADs (shh charliemike) what do you think of the T973 + T163 $2189 as new from american theater via the audiogon link? I will see if I can contact them to see if warranty is valid. Seems like a bargain, although I havent heard it yet.

 

[eknuds01]

thanks

lugano, which rel do you have? The one I listened to was the r305.

Talking about NADs (shh charliemike) what do you think of the T973 + T163 $2189 as new from american theater via the audiogon link? I will see if I can contact them to see if warranty is valid. Seems like a bargain, although I havent heard it yet.

NAD has a reputation for delivering very performance at terrific prices. Make sure you give them a listen before dropping 2k though.

Erik

 

[jk319]

Thank you eknuds01 (and everybody else once again while Im at it)

How does one really test out amps? Ask the salesman to try mulitple amps on the same speaker? It might very well be impossible to find a local NAD dealer that also sells MLs.

I see here that many persons enjoy the SVS subs. It seems they excel at HT. Rel seems to excell at music, and perhaps lacking in HT. What about the Onix Rocket ufw-12 for an in-between compromise?

I am sooooo close, soooo close to placing a bid for some used ML's. Maybe Ill place it tomorrow. Oh man. You guys dont understand, I presently own a Htib, and Ive been shopping pretty hard for some quality stuff. I hope to join the club soon.....

 

[ralflar]

...
Welcome to the club... and as fun as this club is, the ML's will still be "funner" as Ralfar said!
...

I guess I did say that, in one way or another. But charliemike's post was much more punny!

 

[lugano]

lugano, which rel do you have?

This one: http://www.audaud.com/audaud/OCT01/EQUIP/equip3OCT01.html

and it's used only for music. For HT I have another sub.

 

[jk319]

I don't want to keep opening new threads and just hijack this nice forum by storm, so Ill keep it to one thread. All I do all day is dream of Martin Logans. Ive heard only the Vista, Vantage, Summit, Stage. Im looking at ebay right now because I can afford used:

So assuming I am quite familiar with the above: how much of a drop in sq do I get with 5-ch Ascent-i+Theater-i+Scripts ($4900), Aeon ($1550), Aerius ($750).

I am familiar with the Vistas ($2500) that I love (even with its bass issues) so I may bid on those. I have been told to stay away from Clarity's. Are Aeons and Aerius similar to Clarity? See, I have no idea where I can audition these (outside of Clarity)....

Please be forthright and honest, because I have been patient for quite a while. But man its wearing thin. By looking thru these forums, I see that the older models tend to be fuller/richer, but not as detailed (which was what I loved about the new ML's). Also, larger panels in general for better dispersion/staging, correct?

I will predict you guys will say get the 5-speaker combo (I can pick these up) or Vistas(?) Thanks again everyone, jk319.