Panel horizontal tension

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This is like the lawyer in you speaking, right? Skip over the main point and try to get me on a technicality. ...
So anyway, I never said that horizontal tension was not "applied". I said that there is none in the panel (after it is all put together and functioning). This is all in the first post, except the part in parenthesis which is implied and later expounded upon). I also did not say it is "impossible to put horizontal tension on a curved panel". I said it is impossible for a curved film to have tension in a particular direction [unless...] . Think about the difference between "applied", "put", and what the final result is.
Read this over and over again until you get it, or find a statement I made where I claim they do not "put" it in a tension rig and "apply" tension.

Fine, if you weren't talking about them not "applying" horizontal tension, please explain how your statement in the first part of this quote supports, in any conceivable way, your conclusion in the latter part of the post:

BTW, the panels only have tension in the vertical direction. They can't have tension in the horizontal direction because then you couldn't maintain a curved shape.
So I don't see how it is particularly harder to set the tension in this panel vs any other.

Your conclusion is talking about setting tension in the panel, is it not? The only reason you would conclude that it would be no harder to set tension in a wider panel is if your first statement implies they don't "apply" any horizontal tension. I stated this was false based on seeing them put panels together at the factory. You then went on a mathematical tirade to prove your point. Then Ken posted the video which clearly proved my point. Yet you persist . . .

Edit: funny how you never made the distinction that you were talking about final tension and not applying tension, or about how you make no distinction between none and very little tension, until after you saw the video where it is obvious that they are applying horizontal tension to the panel. :rolleyes:
 
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Well, in the interests of fair play and full disclosure, I have to admit I was wrong. In another thread earlier this month, I made the following statement:

Your guess is as good as ours. ML stays pretty tight-lipped about their plans. But I don't expect you will see any wide-paneled speakers or non-powered woofers from them any time in the near future. Too bad, as I think the Prodigy was one of ML's finest speakers of all time.

Boy, was I WRONG! And way to go ML for proving me wrong. I think the Prodigy has just been bested (at a much higher price point, of course).
 
In short, you want enough tension so that the resonant freq is much below the crossover point. There is nothing really wrong with higher tension since you could just increase the voltage to get a more powerful drive. People who build their own panels try to get as much tension as they can. But DIY panels are also flat. Curved panels have a different set of rules for tension.

What many people don't get is that you can lean on the tension rig all you want, but the final horizontal tension in the panel is going to be limited by various factors. My long post in this thread shows what limits the horizontal tension to a very low level. Why some people get all huffy when I apply Newton's Laws to their beloved speaker... ehh, I don't care to comment.


I listed a number of possible factors; all reasonable. Do you agree with any of them?
 
You will have to list them again because in one of your posts you disavowed half of it.

I think it is important to demonstrate how one arrives at a conclusion, including those processes which are erroneous. I could have deleted it when I realized that my premise was wrong, but I felt it was constructive to leave it to show everyone why it is wrong. The rest of those three posts would be useful to you, considering the thought that went into it, and its' basis in researched information. The reason I asked is that I noticed you repeating my theory regarding panel tension and it's relationship to sensitivity/efficiency like you came up with it on your own. Good work.
 
Hi Roberto, from what I understand, it was Justin, Rob (whom I know well), and Rob's girlfriend. They demoed to each and could initially make out a difference but later could not when they blindly tested each other. Justin, please correct if wrong. Justin, you need to get more revealing speakers - like Logans, for instance, to hear the difference ;0



Hola. Well I am going to say something that I know I am going to be nailed. The wonderful sound of music. Here at this forum, what we most love is music, and a little beyond than that. We love to listen the musician(s) playing for us in our own place. Martin Logan speakers are one of the brands that offer to us this, but with a clarity and very easy to understand what the musician(s) are doing and the fun that they are having together. On this hobby, we have not only the speakers, we have a lot of different kinds of gear to make this image, this stage, possible. Also, we all listen different. Some like uncolored and others might like full of colors. Others, just enough of all these, then a question arise. Who is right? Who has the truth? My answer is: my ears. What I do like and listen, not necessary must be your liking. The nuances in the music, for some might not be important, for others, could be very important.

I am a believer of the SMD, and all of you know that. Justin had spent some time by now with them, and he is convinced. He told me it is purely snake oil. He invited three friends along, and they listen with and without the SMD, and did not hear a difference. Nothing. And I really respect that. Not all of us might like what they do to the music. I did the same thing here. I called three good friends, and I do respect their listening abilities, and the result was...two did like with the SMD, and the other said: you should buy more music instead expending all this money on this phony SMD. So, I am always making comparisons with food. Some people hate onions, or mustard. Others love tomato sauce. Sound systems are like food. A little dash of this and that, will make your food to taste different, but not necessary better... Getting back to the SMD, I have the spatial control, and if I take one of the stands, which it is next to the speaker, this side immediately after the stand is moved of its position, the speaker side is almost dead, and something is missing. You put back the stand with the SMDs and the stage is pristine, solid and stable. All of them agreed with this. For this is important, the number three, said, I can live without that, and still, your system sound is great and I love it...I do not give a penny for that!. So, this convinced me, that the SMD are not meant for everybody...and I am sure, that some of you try these wonderful discs, you might get in love with them as Kedar and me are.

I just want to wish to all of you, the happiness, the joy, the feelings, the splendid, the magic, the marvellous, the pleasure that I get through my system, with or without the SMDs. And our ears are the only truth. Trust in them. Many of you had read Mr. Vans Evers. He is a dedicated wood adds to any musical instruments to increase the harmonic texture of it. It does not change the characteristic timbre of the instrument...what it does is enhance it. Some might like this, and other do not. If someone of you would like to read an article that he wrote some time ago regarding the wood and what it could do in your system, you can PM me or send me an email [email protected] and I will remit to you it.

Again, and I know that I am boring you with my comparisons. Sound systems are like cars...and you know the market for the cars...we are in the sports cars, where we can get a lot of gadgets for them. Different tires, different wheels, different gasoline, different brakes, turbos, you name it...and some might think that there are gadgets that do not meet their needs...and again, it is a matter of liking.
 
Yeah that's right Kedar. Here's what I sent Roberto:

"Hi Roberto,

After using them I am convinced it really is snake oil. I won't say anything unless pressed, though.

I really did try. And initially I really thought I heard something. But with three people in the room, when we hid what we were doing from view, no one could tell when changes were made.

May vary from system to system I guess. But I have to say I am a non-believer. It's a psychological thing I am sure.

Regards,

Justin"

The power of suggestion here and the evil workings of foo are playing a big part I think. When you move the disks in and out in full visibility, you can easily feel there IS a change in soundstage. Rob's idea was to hide the discs and his arms behind some foam from the L7 box. When he tested me and I tested Rob and his girlfriend, we were unable to tell any change.

Conclusion? Foo. TBH I had already come to that conclusion before Rob and girlfriend had come round.
 
Hi justin, as I mentioned to you, both on me and the two guys I posted about on sound labs, there was blind testing. They didn't know what the discs were even supposed to do. And it's easy to blind test the discs, because they are small and the guys on the sofa can't really see what the guy standing with his back to them is doing to the direction of the discs on the component.

In every case it worked exactly as it was supposed to. I think there was a problem demoing because all of you haven't used them before. You can contact the guys of wam and art of sound to check if there was a difference.

It's not psychological that's for sure. If you had walked into the synergistic research and schumann resonator rooms as i had suggested, you would have seen excellent effects. There it's placebo, and there is nocebo
 
Please do zilplex now, I want to try them as well, there it's one more guy after you in line for the demo
 
I saw the Art of Sound thread - the Soundlab owner, right?

Things are variable Kedar, and it may be that in different systems you do hear results. Just not with mine.

Dan is getting Zilplex next. Do you know him? Anyway, they will be posted Tuesday.
 
Maybe the problem is that the effects are below the residential noise threshold as RUR mentioned. What you can try is to use Resonance Enhancers. They are also wood objects, sort of like a cylinder with one end capped, and outwards tapered walls. It's shaped sort of like a disposable paper cup. You put your resonator object at the bottom of it, and the tapered walls focus the sound down to the device, and then re-radiate it out like a megaphone. This works for other small "acoustic treatment products" as well.

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I saw the Art of Sound thread - the Soundlab owner, right?

Things are variable Kedar, and it may be that in different systems you do hear results. Just not with mine.

Dan is getting Zilplex next. Do you know him? Anyway, they will be posted Tuesday.

Yes I know Dan well. He is an amazing audition, eager to try out stuff. If you are posting the zilplex to him send my mooks along
 
More importantly - even if there was a difference - would that be the best way to invest a lazy few bux in your stereo system? I think not.
Definitely. It lets you tune your sound stage at no effort, reduce muddiness and harshness

The system I like best, with analysis audio omega planars and NAT audio amplification (SET amps that can provide 120 w) uses this, and that dealer doesnt sell the mooks. He uses them to make sound better. Justin knows this system and likes it too, thinks it's pretty up there.

The key thing to note here is that the dealer said mooks didn't work in his system with front wall absorption, so he took that off as he found these discs added more value. I am already looking at the market for used synergistic research tweaks as these add a lot of value.
 
More importantly - even if there was a difference - would that be the best way to invest a lazy few bux in your stereo system? I think not.
Adam, that's very subjective. Another value for money decision - is the difference worth the bucks to you?

I see we have derailed the intent of the starter of this thread. Perhaps we should start a new thread entitled, "Shun Mook - Civil Discourse Only", in the hope that it will not get out of control?
 
Adam, that's very subjective. Another value for money decision - is the difference worth the bucks to you?

I see we have derailed the intent of the starter of this thread. Perhaps we should start a new thread entitled, "Shun Mook - Civil Discourse Only", in the hope that it will not get out of control?

And we should keep starting new threads on the topic to continue the discussions as the previous ones will get closed
 
Bernard, Mooks are so last season. Zilplex is where it is at. Rizla packet included to show scale.
 

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