old summit question

[bonzo]

Hi so I checked out the old summits, and they were brilliant in terms of openness and punch. Excellent bass.

However aHi so I checked out the old summits, and they were brilliant in terms of openness and punch. Excellent bass.

However as compared to listening to a new EM ESL or Ethos, the guitar wasn't dancing around from panel to panel and the plucking wasn't as pronounced. Admittedly, the guy whose room I was listening to the summits in had very poor acoustics. The room was small, lots of furniture, though he did pull the summits 2 feet from the wall. They were barely 5 feet from each other. That was the only problem I had, could the reason for the guitar not dancing from panel to panel be because of:

1. Poor room acoustics and imaging as compared to a dealer
2. Different amps, this guy was using a McIntosh as compared to a dealer's krell.
3. Ethos panel is better than summits?

If it is 1 or 2, I will buy these, no brainer. s compared to listening to a new EM ESL or Ethos, the guitar wasn't dancing around from panel to panel and the plucking wasn't as pronounced. Admittedly, the guy whose room I was listening to the summits in had very poor acoustics. The room was small, lots of furniture, though he did pull the summits 2 feet from the wall. They were barely 5 feet from each other. That was the only problem I had, could the reason for the guitar not dancing from panel to panel be because of:

1. Poor room acoustics and imaging as compared to a dealer
2. Different amps, this guy was using a McIntosh as compared to a dealer's krell.
3. Ethos panel is better than summits?

If it is 1 or 2, I will buy these, no brainer.

 

[Rich]

Room acoustics and proper setup are absolutely essential to ML performance. Honestly, guitars should never be "dancing between the speakers" unless they are two separate guitars and the mixer intended them to sound that way. All other things being equal, the Summit is a better speaker than either of the other two you are considering.

 

[bonzo]

Can old panels cause that, or is it more of a room placement issue? The reason I ask is because if such problems can be because of acoustic and placement, I can buy this one.

 

[roberto]

Hola Bonzo. Please read about the Summits, those are better product than the Ethos or the Electromotion models. https://www.martinlogan.com/products/summit The bass quality is because you will have 400 Watts/channel driving the two woofers of the Summit. Each Summit has two 200Watts digital Bang and Olufsen power amplifiers built in. You can use as low as 20Watts/channel and you are ok for a nice sound. Their sensitivity is 92dB/2.83V/m , and also you can use up to 600Watts without any harm to he Summits. Go for them!!! Happy listening.

 

[bonzo]

I don't have a problem with that, just why did the guitar plucks not sound as good? Could that be because of poor imaging due to poor acoustics, or due to the fact that an used summit can have panel quality different from a new ethos? This guy is a non smoker, and does take care of his speakers knows his stuff

 

[roberto]

That´s the risk that you have take when buying used goods. A reason to ask yourself, why it is too cheap? You do know the price for the Summit new, right? But if the panels are the issue, ask the price for replacement panels, and put the into the invoice, and check the price of the Summit... if still is a good price point, then go for them. If, not, get the Ethos. It is a fine product too, but not as good as a Summit. The Ethos costs $ 5000.00 less than a brand new Summit (old) and about $ 8000.00 less for the new Summit model. Happy listening.

 

[bonzo]

Thanks, makes sense. A dealer here is charging just over 800 pounds for replacement panels. DOes that sound right?

 

[Gordon Gray]

Your audition set up is a disaster and not indicative of the Summit's performance.

 

[Rich]

I don't have a problem with that, just why did the guitar plucks not sound as good? Could that be because of poor imaging due to poor acoustics, or due to the fact that an used summit can have panel quality different from a new ethos? This guy is a non smoker, and does take care of his speakers knows his stuff

As I said earlier, setup and room acoustics are key with Logans. Two feet from the wall is too close, absent room treatments. Three feet is a minimum and five or so is optimum. Also, five feet between speakers is way too close. Eight feet is optimum for proper stereo imaging. Small rooms are not optimum for Logans. So yes, in all likelihood, room acoustics and setup are to blame for the differences you heard. Differences in associated components can also make a big difference. The Krell may have a lot more headroom and punch for those sharp transients of a guitar pluck, whereas the Macs have a warmer, but perhaps more laid back presentation. Also, in a small room with no room treatments, bass modes and resonances can drown out proper imaging and clarity of the highs. The settings of the bass tone controls on the back of the Summit can also play into this.

The panel on the original Summit is, in essence, no different than the panel on the EM and Ethos, except that the latter are smaller (not a good thing). And of course the panels on the Summits were made in America by people who have many, many years of experience doing so. The panels on the new speakers were made in Canada by people with less experience. The only other factor that might be relevant is the age of the Summits and how well they were cared for. If they have taken proper care of them, they should sound fine. Again, the Summit is a much better speaker than the other two you mentioned. It was the top of the line just a few short years ago, and the other speakers you mention are way down the line. One is at the bottom of the reference series, and the other isn't even in the reference series. The only real improvement of the Summit X over the Summit is in the crossover implementation, and the Summit X costs more than twice what the Ethos costs. Think about that one for a minute. The Summit is currently one of the best deals on the used market.

 

[bonzo]

Thanks. That helps me make my decision, I will buy

 

[bonzo]

Any good speakers cables recommendations? Is Transient Audio supposed to be good?

 

[roberto]

Bonzo... there are a lot of possibilities regarding cables. You have to listen to them first. Try not to buy very expensive cables. Some here like balanced and others like the single ended RCA connectors. For speaker cables, is about the same, try to buy not so expensive, DH labs, Blue Jean cables are doing their homework, offering to you, a not too expensive product with very good quality and sound. But, your ears have to decide. I like a lot silver plated cables, others like copper, and others like pure silver. To my ears, wire world, Cardas, Nordost, Oval, Kimber Cable,Custom House, Audio Quest, Harmonic Tech, etc... there are so many options, that you could get crazy finding one. General rule: get the a thick cable for speakers, heavy gauge is the clue. NO 12 or 10. Also, some manufactures offers to you their specs. Try to find the one with less capacitance and less inductance by feet. Because your new Summits have built in power amplifiers, low heavy bass, will not be sent by your power amplifier, but the info of the low frequency, yes, you can use a not too expensive cable like the T-14 by DH Labs. They will ship it to you. www.silversonic.com We have a member here, his name is Gordon, who likes a lot DH Labs, and he had your Summits. He now is using another kind of speakers, but he really belong to us. He is very dedicated audiophile too as Rich. I think that you will like a good cable... with time and experimenting, listening, you will choose the one that you liked most. Try those that you are suggesting. Trust your ears!!! Happy listening. (Please excuse my English)

 

[gmartan]

Hi so I checked out the old summits, and they were brilliant in terms of openness and punch. Excellent bass.

However aHi so I checked out the old summits, and they were brilliant in terms of openness and punch. Excellent bass.

However as compared to listening to a new EM ESL or Ethos, the guitar wasn't dancing around from panel to panel and the plucking wasn't as pronounced. Admittedly, the guy whose room I was listening to the summits in had very poor acoustics. The room was small, lots of furniture, though he did pull the summits 2 feet from the wall. They were barely 5 feet from each other. That was the only problem I had, could the reason for the guitar not dancing from panel to panel be because of:

1. Poor room acoustics and imaging as compared to a dealer
2. Different amps, this guy was using a McIntosh as compared to a dealer's krell.
3. Ethos panel is better than summits?

If it is 1 or 2, I will buy these, no brainer. s compared to listening to a new EM ESL or Ethos, the guitar wasn't dancing around from panel to panel and the plucking wasn't as pronounced. Admittedly, the guy whose room I was listening to the summits in had very poor acoustics. The room was small, lots of furniture, though he did pull the summits 2 feet from the wall. They were barely 5 feet from each other. That was the only problem I had, could the reason for the guitar not dancing from panel to panel be because of:

1. Poor room acoustics and imaging as compared to a dealer
2. Different amps, this guy was using a McIntosh as compared to a dealer's krell.
3. Ethos panel is better than summits?

If it is 1 or 2, I will buy these, no brainer.

It is #2. I love my McIntosh gear but the various McIntosh amps I tried with the Summits gave the results you have heard, although your description is a bit off. It's high frequency roll-off really. A high quality and powerful direct-coupled amp works best due to the massive variance of impedance seen over the frequency range by the amp.

 

[bonzo]

When you say a high quality and powerful direct-couple amp, would Krell be an example?

Also, what is meant by high frequency roll off?

 

[gmartan]

When you say a high quality and powerful direct-couple amp, would Krell be an example?

Also, what is meant by high frequency roll off?

Yes, any modern solid state amplifier without output transformers would be considered direct coupled. High frequency roll-off isn't quite accurate. Speakers with a fairly constant impedance curve over their entire frequency range are typically wonderful driven by a McIntosh amp.

In the case of the Summits, and some other current ML models, the impedance at higher frequencies drops well below one ohm. With an output transformer, full power transfer is achieved when the speaker impedance stays close to the transformer tap impedance. That is why some people with McIntosh amps and ML Summits have commented that they get better highs when they use a lower tap, say two ohms.
Of course, this causes some issues elsewhere. In my case the highs got a bit better, not great, but the bass got looser and the liquid midrange lost some luster. Highs excluded, the McIntosh amps have some of the best bass and midrange I have heard but to be emotionally engaged by the music I need all the air and transparency that are the ML speakers forte. I tried going back to dynamic speakers but it just didn't do it for me.

Your Krell should sound great. Even though the bass speakers in the Summit are powered, it became obvious that the bigger the amp the more control over the woofers. I can't make much sense of that but it's what I heard.