New Motif Center Channel

[Keyser Soze]

I wrote to ML to ask about this speaker and they said that they were shipping them to dealers next week and they should be available for purchase by mid-August. The Motif is going to replace the Cinema and be "below" the Stage in the center channel hierarchy. Enclosed (hopefully) is the little info packet they emailed me.

Reid

 

[jk319]

Sigh. Great. More upgrade temptations.

Height is perfect for me... lol

 

[twich54]

We watched them being built while on the tour in Lawrence last month.

 

[Thai]

The tweeter is not crossed low at all...4000 Hz...that's kinda high, isn't it?? Otherwise, it looks great.

 

[akm3]

I have two questions

1) The Motif is 'below' the stage, but where does it fit in with the Logos/Cinema/Theater/Cinema i/Theater i hierarchy? (I don't even know the hierarchy of the speakers I just listed...could someone put me straight?

2) It seems to me that it would be more consistent for ML to make a center channel that crosses over to an ATF high frequency driver instead of a traditional tweeter? Is there a technical reason? Cost reason? Matching reason? It seems that if the ATF is supposed to provide a closer match to ML sound then a tweeter, why are they using tweeters? - Please help me out on this one. Seems like a no brainer.

 

[JonFo]

I have two questions

1) The Motif is 'below' the stage, but where does it fit in with the Logos/Cinema/Theater/Cinema i/Theater i hierarchy? (I don't even know the hierarchy of the speakers I just listed...could someone put me straight?

2) It seems to me that it would be more consistent for ML to make a center channel that crosses over to an ATF high frequency driver instead of a traditional tweeter? Is there a technical reason? Cost reason? Matching reason? It seems that if the ATF is supposed to provide a closer match to ML sound then a tweeter, why are they using tweeters? - Please help me out on this one. Seems like a no brainer.

AKM, both excellent questions. Here’s my stab at them:

1) The Motif is the new ‘entry level’ ESL center. Relative to the older line, it will be replacing the Cinema i, as they are roughly the same size (motif a bit narrower due to better packaging ). Performance is about equal as well.​

2) One of the big challenges in a center speaker is dispersion into the audience in both relative near-field and far field. For near-field (~9'), the issue is how to cover the left and right seats well. This is partially where the use for a tweeter comes in, as it has a much wider dispersion characteristic than an ESL (at only 30 degrees, covering the outer edges is tough). Since our hearing acuity goes up after ~3,500Hz, they need to ensure that this range is well dispersed L/R.

There is also a need for vertical dispersion, as a 10” tall ESL element that’s flat in the vertical dimension will not radiate much energy above or below it (one of the positive attributes of the big L/R speakers, no ceiling / floor bounce). But for a center, trying to cover people listeners ears that are anywhere from 3’ to 5’ off the ground, 10” of height isn’t going to do it. Ergo the tweeter for good vertical dispersion in the >3,500Hz area.

Why no ATF? Good question, as I agree, ATF would be a better match for the ESL. However, it is much more directional than a dome tweeter, therefore it does not solve the fundamental dispersion issues I outline above.​

And finally, a nice pic of a Motif. It looks really nice in person as well, ML is doing a great job at industrial designs these days:

 

[akm3]

AKM, both excellent questions. Here’s my stab at them:

1) The Motif is the new ‘entry level’ ESL center. Relative to the older line, it will be replacing the Cinema i, as they are roughly the same size (motif a bit narrower due to better packaging ). Performance is about equal as well.​

2) One of the big challenges in a center speaker is dispersion into the audience in both relative near-field and far field. For near-field (~9'), the issue is how to cover the left and right seats well. This is partially where the use for a tweeter comes in, as it has a much wider dispersion characteristic than an ESL (at only 30 degrees, covering the outer edges is tough). Since our hearing acuity goes up after ~3,500Hz, they need to ensure that this range is well dispersed L/R.

There is also a need for vertical dispersion, as a 10” tall ESL element that’s flat in the vertical dimension will not radiate much energy above or below it (one of the positive attributes of the big L/R speakers, no ceiling / floor bounce). But for a center, trying to cover people listeners ears that are anywhere from 3’ to 5’ off the ground, 10” of height isn’t going to do it. Ergo the tweeter for good vertical dispersion in the >3,500Hz area.

Why no ATF? Good question, as I agree, ATF would be a better match for the ESL. However, it is much more directional than a dome tweeter, therefore it does not solve the fundamental dispersion issues I outline above.​

And finally, a nice pic of a Motif. It looks really nice in person as well, ML is doing a great job at industrial designs these days:

Thank you for your responses, but that then has me question the Fresco and Fresco i as being good for center channels.

The Fresco has ATF drivers that cross the highs over to another ATF driver. If they are too 'beamy' to be good, then why does the Fresco get such praise? Why don't they make a Fresco that crosses over to a tweeter?

It still just doesn't make sense to me.

/edit: I have partially answered my own question from EXPERIENCE. Why I didn't recall this experience before I don't know. Using my Fresco as a Center channel, I had it below the TV, about 1 foot off the floor. The highs were dull, and it didn't match the left and right Vistas AT ALL. (Not even close!)

But, then I raised it up to about midway up the Stat panel on the Vista (there was no TV at this point, it would be right in the center of the TV screen), and magically the sound got much better and matching improved greatly. It still sounded better with a phantom center, but it was much better. I realize that WHY this was now was because the high frequency ATF driver wasn't dispersing well! Thanks Jon you taught me something.

Of course, now I think there really IS a good reason to have a Fresco with a tweeter instead of a high ATF.

-Allen

 

[Thai]

If you want a true center channel, then i would just go for a true CC, such as Stage or this new CC. Everything else is a compromise and will not match your Vista's.

 

[Charliemike]

I know I'm poking the bear but I hate center channels.

Has anyone ever tried playing anything through their mains with no center connected? I'm not talking about using a phantom center but configured as if there were a center but it's not hooked up?

The mains are incredibly muffled. Almost like they are barely audible.

EVERYTHING is going through the center it seems.

Unless I horked something, that tells me two things:

1) If you cheap on a center channel speaker you're nuts
2) Mains don't matter as much for multi-channel listening as I thought.

I'm sticking with a phantom center. I just don't like my system dominated by the smallest link in the front soundstage.

Feel free to call me an idiot

 

[Pcar928fan]

1) If you cheap on a center channel speaker you're nuts
2) Mains don't matter as much for multi-channel listening as I thought.

You are quite right. That is why it is said that for movies and TV viewing the CENTER CHANNEL IS THE MOST IMPORTANT SPEAKER IN YOUR SYSTEM! So, if you want to split that duty across your fronts (and they are good speakers) that is probably better than cheaping out on a center channel, but frankly a GOOD center channel is going to make a WORLD of difference in your movie and TV enjoyment.

 

[akm3]

I know I'm poking the bear but I hate center channels.

Has anyone ever tried playing anything through their mains with no center connected? I'm not talking about using a phantom center but configured as if there were a center but it's not hooked up?

The mains are incredibly muffled. Almost like they are barely audible.

EVERYTHING is going through the center it seems.

Unless I horked something, that tells me two things:

1) If you cheap on a center channel speaker you're nuts
2) Mains don't matter as much for multi-channel listening as I thought.

I'm sticking with a phantom center. I just don't like my system dominated by the smallest link in the front soundstage.

Feel free to call me an idiot

I actually agree with you completely, Phantom center gives the 'best' performance - to a narrow sweet spot. If you want to have guests enjoy the movie too, you need a center.

 

[JonFo]

CharlieMike, I agree that the center carries the majority of the weight in multichannel movies (and to a lesser extent, many multichannel audio recordings).

Having a subpar center can hurt more than help.

Which explains why some of people go to 'extremes' to get a decent sized and performing center.

The old saw of having five identical speakers as the ideal multichannel setup is and always will be true.
(Within limits, center channel dispersion has somewhat different requirements and L/R’s).

This is the challenge with ML's as they are not small, therefore unless you have a large, acoustically transparent screen and a projector, getting a decent center is a challenge.

I feel the Stage does a very good job of doing the best it can within the constraints of positioning and cost. For smaller rooms, the new Motif is also a good compromise. But let's not kid ourselves, that's what they are, compromises.

Phantom is another compromise, which might work well for some, less so for others; as rooms, your relative seating position, etc. all play into whether this is a workable compromise.
I’ve heard both kinds, and a phantom that’s blurry (wait, aren’t ghosts supposed to be ethereal?) isn’t much better than an under-performing center.

The rule of thumb is: Get the biggest, best center you can fit and/or afford. Then make sure you position and tune it to your room and seating positions.

 

[MickeyVee]

I'm finding this a very intersting thread.
In my personal experience, I have always had a hard time with a phantom centre. Most of the time, I had trouble with/stuggled to hear the vocals but the rest of the sountrack was amazing. Maybe it's just me.
I'm using a Vignette as my centre now and for me, it's like night and day. As far as dispersion goes, it's pretty awesome too. At the far right of my HT is my desk/office and at the far left is the kitchen (I'm in a small condo). From either extreme, the vocals are great and any panning sound come out quite well. Dead center, it's awesome.
I have been eyeing the Motif since I first saw it here. My plans include getting the Motif as the center and acquiring another Vignette to move them to the rears. This would be the first 'real' Martin Logan Centre channel that is in my snack bracket.
I am totally in awe of the systems posted here. Even working within the low end of the ML line, the results are impressive.
There's that Joey'itis kicking in. I have the next five years worth of upgrades already planned. In the mean time, the journey is incredible.

 

[ctbarker32]

I just learned about the new Motif.

I currently have a Cinema for my center channel along with Vantage's for left and right.

Anyone have thoughts about weather the Motif would be worthwhile upgrade from the Cinema? They seem similar. I do like the new styling.

My previous speakers were Aerius i's. The Vantage's were a big upgrade. Not sure the Motif would be quite as big a change?

-CB

 

[Pcar928fan]

My previous speakers were Aerius i's. The Vantage's were a big upgrade. Not sure the Motif would be quite as big a change?

I thought the Motif was to be under the Cinema not a replacement for it... I could be wrong about that. I agree that if you have the current generation of ML speakers this one certainly would look more like it belongs in the family!

 

[sleepysurf]

I plan on getting the Motif. However, I'm disappointed it only comes in a choice of two stock finishes (black or cherry). I wonder if ML will eventually offer upgraded veneers (e.g. Bubinga, others) for additional $$. I know they do that for the Stage, but that model is a little too large for my room.

 

[Pcar928fan]

I plan on getting the Motif. However, I'm disappointed it only comes in a choice of two stock finishes (black or cherry).

That is unfortunate! I thought for sure they would offer it in all the current finishes!

 

[Thai]

I plan on getting the Motif. However, I'm disappointed it only comes in a choice of two stock finishes (black or cherry). I wonder if ML will eventually offer upgraded veneers (e.g. Bubinga, others) for additional $$. I know they do that for the Stage, but that model is a little too large for my room.

Are you sure the STAGE is too big?? It's not that big at all. I don't see being that much bigger than Motif.

 

[sleepysurf]

After comparing the sizes, I see there is really NOT a big difference. I'll need to listen to both to see if the additional cost of the Stage is worth it. My system is used 90% for two channel, so I'd prefer to save $$, perhaps investing the difference into a Bubinga-finish Motif, if possible.

 

[JonFo]

Are you sure the STAGE is too big?? It's not that big at all. I don't see being that much bigger than Motif.

There's no such thing as too large a center, in my book at least :devil: