ML Descent sub vs JL 113 Fathom

[RUR]

OK, so I nabbed a JL f112 off A-gon today and should have it in a few days. Problem is, how in the heck do I hook it up in a 2ch only system with "traditional" gear. I have a Modwright preamp feeding two monoblocks and so no sub or LFE out on anything. Do I now need a dedicated crossover or ??????

Help!

 

[gordonmenninger]

OK, so I nabbed a JL f112 off A-gon today and should have it in a few days. Problem is, how in the heck do I hook it up in a 2ch only system with "traditional" gear. I have a Modwright preamp feeding two monoblocks and so no sub or LFE out on anything. Do I now need a dedicated crossover or ??????

Help!

yes, you need a dedicated crossover. I would suggest you get the one from Bryston - that seems to be a pretty popular choice! You will be sooo glad you got the JL though - it is an amazing sub! I am awaiting for delivery of my second F113!

 

[RUR]

Gordon, do you mean the 10B "Sub" model? Geez, I hate to put a crossover into the system.

Edit: Not to mention it's $3K!

 

[tonepub]

You don't need a dedicated crossover...

Run the sub off of the second pair of line outs on the Modwright.
Then adjust the sub controls on the JL to blend with your speakers best.

As Dan said, it will all depend on the size, shape and volume of your room.

If you can't get your hands on a level meter, etc. Play with it to see where the sub seems to blend and dissappear best. If you can grab an old Stereophile test disc or other one with graduated test tones, you can get it pretty close by ear.

Happy listening!

 

[RUR]

Thanks Jeff! In this scenario, the mains will still be reproducing full-range, so I'll miss out on lightening their woofer load at the lowest frequencies, but I've got a functional sub!:music:

I can then determine if a crossover is warranted and keep an eye on A-gon to save a bit on a 10B.

 

[adanny]

Thanks Jeff! In this scenario, the mains will still be reproducing full-range, so I'll miss out on lightening their woofer load at the lowest frequencies, but I've got a functional sub!:music:

I can then determine if a crossover is warranted and keep an eye on A-gon to save a bit on a 10B.

This old thread had so many interesting questions that I am pondering right now...

I was wondering if one year of hindsight amongst this group had yielded any more insight into the following questions:
a) Did adding subs such as Fathom improve 2-ch, music sound in a Logan setup? HT is a no brainer but what about 2-ch music?
b) How well does the Fathom integrate with Martin Logan speakers? It seems that the f112/f113 are as good or better than the Descent i in terms of performance. But do they integrate as seamlessly with Logans, as the Descent is obviously designed/known to do? Did anyone compare the Descent i versus JLA for Summits or Spires? What were the experiences of folks who added JLA's to Summits/Spires?
c) Was the sound better to your ears when you left the MartinLogan mains full range, or crossed-over at ~40-50Hz or 80 Hz?
d) How did you crossover - with an external active crossover, a pre-amp, or an HT-type receiver?

In terms of background, I have Summits that serve as the flagship of a dual HT-2 ch system. I use a Parasound Halo for HT processing, and a TADAC tube pre-amp for 2 ch. The TADAC has HT pass through so no cables need to be switched. I have personally yet to find a processor that is even close in 2-ch to dedicated 2-channel pre-amps. That personal bias/observation drives a lot of my system decisions.

As I posted elsewhere, I am considering getting rid of my old SVS 20-39+ and replacing with Descents or JLA f112/113's. Am leaning towards adding 2 new subs (Descent or Fathom f112/f113) but not convinced yet on the merits of it. Also, the TADAC pre-amp is configured in such a way that I will have to run the Summits full range after I add the subs.

would love to hear about observations on the above
adanny

 

[Audiophiliac]

If you are looking into those subs, also take a look at the new Paradigm Sub1 and Sub2. They are BEASTS! You can plug them into 208/240V to get the most out of the amps!

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58859

I would not hesitate to put those in the company of the F113 and Descent i. Heck, I would even consider evaluating their Signature Sub25 as well.

Having said that, I have heard both the Descent and the F113 and I think they both would work fairly equally with the Summits. The nod for sheer output capability might go to the JL, but the Descent i is no slouch by any means. JL will tell you that you can cross the F113 over at 80Hz regardless of your mains setup, and it will blend fine. YMMV, but it does very well up that high. In a mixed HT/2 Ch, I think the JL would get my vote, but with the Summits running full range, adding the Descents to that configuration might just yield as good results depending on how far to the right you normally have the big knob.

Let us know what you decide. And pics!

 

[churchill]

This old thread had so many interesting questions that I am pondering right now...

I was wondering if one year of hindsight amongst this group had yielded any more insight into the following questions:
a) Did adding subs such as Fathom improve 2-ch, music sound in a Logan setup? HT is a no brainer but what about 2-ch music?
b) How well does the Fathom integrate with Martin Logan speakers? It seems that the f112/f113 are as good or better than the Descent i in terms of performance. But do they integrate as seamlessly with Logans, as the Descent is obviously designed/known to do? Did anyone compare the Descent i versus JLA for Summits or Spires? What were the experiences of folks who added JLA's to Summits/Spires?
c) Was the sound better to your ears when you left the MartinLogan mains full range, or crossed-over at ~40-50Hz or 80 Hz?
d) How did you crossover - with an external active crossover, a pre-amp, or an HT-type receiver?

In terms of background, I have Summits that serve as the flagship of a dual HT-2 ch system. I use a Parasound Halo for HT processing, and a TADAC tube pre-amp for 2 ch. The TADAC has HT pass through so no cables need to be switched. I have personally yet to find a processor that is even close in 2-ch to dedicated 2-channel pre-amps. That personal bias/observation drives a lot of my system decisions.

As I posted elsewhere, I am considering getting rid of my old SVS 20-39+ and replacing with Descents or JLA f112/113's. Am leaning towards adding 2 new subs (Descent or Fathom f112/f113) but not convinced yet on the merits of it. Also, the TADAC pre-amp is configured in such a way that I will have to run the Summits full range after I add the subs.

would love to hear about observations on the above
adanny

I've been running a F112 with my Vistas for about 6 months now; running the Vista full range and crossing the sub over a 45Hz and using the ARO to smooth out the response. I still felt the bass could be dialed in more and decided to try an external electronic crossover. I purchased a Marchand XM-9 from a fellow MLC member. The unit came with a 80Hz crossover point and I've ordered a few others, 70Hz, 65Hz, and 60Hz.

I'm now running the F112 80Hz and down and the Vista 80Hz up. I can't believe what a difference the new crossover point made in the sound quality of both the bass and the highs and mids as well. Since the Vista has a ported bass enclosure I sometimes could hear port noise on heavy bass passages but now that is nonexistent. It also really opened up the highs and mids.

This little experiment has yielded the biggest improvement in sound second only to room treatments. I'm looking forward to trying the other crossover points as well.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
I definitely think crossing over at 80 Hz is the way to go with your Vista/F112 setup. While the Vista is a very capable Speaker, the F112 is a truly special Subwoofer which works quite well at 80 Hz and relieves stress of both the Vistas and the amplifier driving them.
Cheers,
JJ

 

[Gordon]

As I mentioned in the best upgrade for 2009 thread, the pair of JL 112's for stereo was a knock out for me.

I'm still considering the Bryston X over. From what I've read and in discussion with a guy who uses one extensively, it is a very fine piece. I've found the subs to be fairly difficult to blend correctly. But once done, WOW. I'm in the process of adjusting them again. I've added several more bass traps to the room and the balance seems a bit off. The JL's have all the adjustments needed to balance the system and provide me with accurate bass. Not the over the top Boom, just additional support to the whole presentation which can be quite remarkable with accurate bass.

Gordon

 

[adanny]

If you are looking into those subs, also take a look at the new Paradigm Sub1 and Sub2. They are BEASTS! You can plug them into 208/240V to get the most out of the amps!

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58859

I would not hesitate to put those in the company of the F113 and Descent i. Heck, I would even consider evaluating their Signature Sub25 as well.

Having said that, I have heard both the Descent and the F113 and I think they both would work fairly equally with the Summits. The nod for sheer output capability might go to the JL, but the Descent i is no slouch by any means. JL will tell you that you can cross the F113 over at 80Hz regardless of your mains setup, and it will blend fine. YMMV, but it does very well up that high. In a mixed HT/2 Ch, I think the JL would get my vote, but with the Summits running full range, adding the Descents to that configuration might just yield as good results depending on how far to the right you normally have the big knob.

Let us know what you decide. And pics!

Knob for the sub ain't too far to the right I am not a big fan of jolting the house foundation!

will definitely let you know where I come out. The sub 25 is too big and, visually, in your face fo rmy liking. Once you see the pics of the room (if I ever get handy with a digicam), you will see that 2 big subs will kill the room these are going in My listening-HT setup is in our main family room, which has been decorated in a contemporary theme, with a lot of thought by my wife (and some by me!). It took a HUGE amount of convincing to even get the Logans and a Plasma plus projector in there! Advantage of doing sound and vision in the family room is that it is in the flow of the house and everyone can enjoy it. disadvantage is some contraints on size and decor of the components.