Is the Descent overkill with the Summit?

[kcl]

As a preface, I've lurked here since 2002 when I bought my Martin Logan speakers, but only recently joined the forum. My system is within our family room, with the primary speakers Ascent mains, Theater center, and Descent front sub. (There's also some in-ceiling, bipolar surrounds, two-way rear effects, and a powered 10" rear sub.) Although I personally prefer to listen to 2-channel music, the system's overall usage is probably 95% home theater. I don't consider myself an audiophile, but I definitely prefer the results that I get with high quality equipment.

I'm currently doing some upgrades to my system (primarily switching to a Sunfire TGP-5 pre-processor and TGA 7x400 amp). Unfortunately, like theWB in his "What a mistake" thread, while auditioning equipment I made the serious error of doing some extended listening to 2-channel music on a pair of Summits. From what I can determine from this forum, I have now developed a serious case of an apparently well-known malady known as "Joey-itis". (I really, really want a pair of these speakers. I lust after these speakers. I can't believe I'm seriously considering replacing my Ascents. I thought I was happy with my Ascents. Sigh.)

Ok, with all of that angst out of the way, one of the things that I noticed while listening to the Summits was that, even without a sub, they did an marvelous job supporting the low-end. A little digging showed that each Summit speaker contains two 10" subs and two 200-watt amps. I also found that my Descent sub (which I love) has three 10" subs with a single 400-watt amp.

So my question is basically this: If I upgrade my Ascents to Summits, is the Descent still useful? Since the Summits have four 10" subs, each with its own 200-watt amp, is having the Descent with its three 10" subs and a single 400-watt amp simply overkill? Would the Descent be an important component in 7-channel HT support, but not necessarily with 2-channel music?

Thanks in advance for any comments.

 

[JohnA]

Room volume would be a major factor, I would have thought.
A large room would need a lot of air to be shifted, while a smaller one might be primarely fighting with standing waves and cancellations.

As for HT, the information of the subwoofer channel is not always the low-frequency leftovers from the other speakers (if they are marked as 'small'), but also extra effects marked specifically for the .1 channel.
So irrespective of 2-channel performance you'd need the sub for HT.
That is from my own experience, anyway...

 

[Dominick22]

KCL,

I am not an expert nor one who has experianced the summits yet, but one thing I think you may be forgetting is that the Descent is Servo controlled. Are the Summits Servo controlled? I am pretty sure the Ascent i woofers are not.

Anyway, from experiance I have truly developed a desire for servo controllers. I notice the benefits most with HT. Every watch Polar Express when the train is pulling in? The exactness of the bass tones from the train are so obviously better than standard subs that a regular Joe could tell the difference!

Dominick

 

[babydoc]

Descents for Summits: How much is enough?

I went from Ascents to Summits and already had two Descents in the system. I added two Descent i's recently. Depending on your room size (mine is 21 x 15 x8), adding subwoofers dramatically improves the clarity of the midrange and upper bass, even with the Summits. The Summits have active subwoofers but the circuitry in the Descent i's is different. I listen mostly to music so LFE's were not the primary motive for getting subs.
To help you with your decision, you need to audition a properly set up system with Summits and Descents together. I did so before I purchased.

 

[robertawillisjr]

I hear what you guys are saying. But beside room size, we need to ask what are the major uses of the system? If it is HT and LFE is important than I would agree that add 1 or more Descents would be beneficial.

My question is what are the real benefits for a person whose primary use of a system is music? Will adding Descents to a Summit system primarily used for music be beneficial? Only an in-room audition will tell the story.

Even if your entertainment habits are primarily HT and you have Summits, I would suggest looking at the room first. Of course, for those of us (and I am not one of them) who prefer an over abundance of wham and bam, the Descents would be useful. It is always your choice.

 

[Joey_V]

I hear what you guys are saying. But beside room size, we need to ask what are the major uses of the system? If it is HT and LFE is important than I would agree that add 1 or more Descents would be beneficial.

My question is what are the real benefits for a person whose primary use of a system is music? Will adding Descents to a Summit system primarily used for music be beneficial? Only an in-room audition will tell the story.

Even if your entertainment habits are primarily HT and you have Summits, I would suggest looking at the room first. Of course, for those of us (and I am not one of them) who prefer an over abundance of wham and bam, the Descents would be useful. It is always your choice.

Hello!!

I think that a Descent sub will add to the experience, especially in movies. Make sure to get the SMS-1 room equalizer, to get the most out of your sub, btw.

For music, it's really a tossup with regards to your preference and how big your room is. In my room of about 15x22, when I had my Summits out of my bedroom, I thought that I could've "used" a sub. Whether a Descent was indicated, I'm not sure.

It's totally up to you in the end, the Summits can handle infrasonics with ease, but the Descent goes a whole half octave lower than that on the Summits... and with ease!

Joey :welcome:

 

[kcl]

... A large room would need a lot of air to be shifted... As for HT, the information of the subwoofer channel is not always the low-frequency leftovers from the other speakers (if they are marked as 'small'), but also extra effects marked specifically for the .1 channel. So irrespective of 2-channel performance you'd need the sub for HT ...

Good point! To give you an idea of the layout, this system is in our great room, which is 16' wide, 22' deep, and has a 10' ceiling. There is a 6' high x 8' wide window and 8' x 8' sliding glass door on the right wall, an 8' x 8' entry way at the rear of the left wall, and 3/4 of the back the room is mostly open to the kitchen. The floors are laminate, but with acoustic treatment and padding used during installation.

The equipment configuration has the Ascents about 3' in and forward from the front corners, with a 65" RPTV and two equipment racks between them. The Theater is on the floor in front of the TV, while the Descent is in the right front corner. The surround effects and rear 7.2 speakers are in the ceiling, and the rear sub is in the right rear corner. (I'll make an entry in the Members System area once the Sunfires are in the system in a week or so.)

So, with all of that said, I'm pretty sure you're right in that the Descent can significantly add to the HT usage in this room.

 

[kcl]

Joey_V -- Are you the source of this joey-itis malady I've been afflicted with? If so, I have some issues with you!

 

[Joey_V]

Joey_V -- Are you the source of this joey-itis malady I've been afflicted with? If so, I have some issues with you!

I think it's airborne....

 

[Pcar928fan]

Well, now if you get the Summits you have a bigger problem. You can't just look at those alone. If you want the Summits then BY ALL MEANS GET THEM! But remember you will now want to get a Stage and the newest of the Descent's, heck, maybe TWO OF THEM! I mean YOU DO want this stuff to all match and look as good together as it sounds DON'T YOU?!!!:devil:

LOL! Best of luck, if you are 95% HT then at least one Descent is in your future NO MATTER what speakers you run for your mains.

 

[kcl]

Well, now if you get the Summits you have a bigger problem. You can't just look at those alone. If you want the Summits then BY ALL MEANS GET THEM! But remember you will now want to get a Stage and the newest of the Descent's, heck, maybe TWO OF THEM! I mean YOU DO want this stuff to all match and look as good together as it sounds DON'T YOU?!!!:devil:

LOL! Best of luck, if you are 95% HT then at least one Descent is in your future NO MATTER what speakers you run for your mains.

That 95% HT is due to of the rest of the family's usage; my usage is about 50% 2-channel music. (And I'll stick with my 'old' Descent, thank you. )

 

[Pcar928fan]

That 95% HT is due to of the rest of the family's usage; my usage is about 50% 2-channel music. (And I'll stick with my 'old' Descent, thank you. )

I was thinking you could just GIVE ME your old Descent since you NEED to update to the new one! :devil:

 

[Dreamer]

I think it's airborne....

Actually, there are some studies that conclude that Joeyitis is actually caused by exposure to a sub-atomic partical called "Upgradium", which is emitted from many kinds of high-end audio gear, especially electrostatic panels, Class-A amplifiers, and Triode Valves. Exposure to Upgradium cause symptoms of restlessness, the desire to spend money, and acute discomfort associated with miniscule imperfections in sound reproduction.

Strangely, the emissions of Upgradium are almost negligable in "consumer-grade" gear. Consumer-grade gear does emit copious amounts of another subatomic particle called "Hometheatrogen". Symptoms of exposure to this particle are indiference to the quality of mirange and high-frequency sonics, an uncontrollable desire for MORE BASS, and a complete lack of ability to hear high levels of noise and distortion.

Unfortunately, there is no known cure for Upgradium exposure, but symptoms may be temorarily relieved by using newer equipment in one's system. Apparently, Upgradium emissions start at nearly zero with high-end gear, but increase with the age of any given component. By frequently replacing equipment with newer gear, one may minimize exposure.

Exposure to Hometheatrogen may be instantly cured with high doses of Upgradium, however, the treatment is, as you may see, as bad as the disease... :duh:

--Richard C.

 

[Pcar928fan]

Richard,

That was GREAT! LOVE IT! ROTFLMAO!

Actually, there are some studies that conclude that Joeyitis is actually caused by exposure to a sub-atomic partical called "Upgradium", which is emitted from many kinds of high-end audio gear, especially electrostatic panels, Class-A amplifiers, and Triode Valves. Exposure to Upgradium cause symptoms of restlessness, the desire to spend money, and acute discomfort associated with miniscule imperfections in sound reproduction.

Strangely, the emissions of Upgradium are almost negligable in "consumer-grade" gear. Consumer-grade gear does emit copious amounts of another subatomic particle called "Hometheatrogen". Symptoms of exposure to this particle are indiference to the quality of mirange and high-frequency sonics, an uncontrollable desire for MORE BASS, and a complete lack of ability to hear high levels of noise and distortion.

Unfortunately, there is no known cure for Upgradium exposure, but symptoms may be temorarily relieved by using newer equipment in one's system. Apparently, Upgradium emissions start at nearly zero with high-end gear, but increase with the age of any given component. By frequently replacing equipment with newer gear, one may minimize exposure.

Exposure to Hometheatrogen may be instantly cured with high doses of Upgradium, however, the treatment is, as you may see, as bad as the disease... :duh:

--Richard C.

 

[kcl]

Actually, there are some studies that conclude that Joeyitis is actually caused by exposure to a sub-atomic partical called "Upgradium"...

Now that was funny. Nice job!

 

[JohnA]

...16' wide, 22' deep, and has a 10' ceiling. There is a 6' high x 8' wide window and 8' x 8' sliding glass door on the right wall, an 8' x 8' entry way at the rear of the left wall, and 3/4 of the back the room is mostly open to the kitchen. ...

That's a big space alright
A Descent (or two) won't go amiss. You'd probably have to experiment a bit with sub locations and phases to make sure they don't cancel out at the wrong places, or worse don't get boomy at your listening position.

 

[kcl]

That's a big space alright
A Descent (or two) won't go amiss. You'd probably have to experiment a bit with sub locations and phases to make sure they don't cancel out at the wrong places, or worse don't get boomy at your listening position.

Good point. I'm probably going to take Joey's advice and pick up a Velodyne SMS-1 subwoofer equalizer. This should allow me to get the best out of the front Descent, rear Definitive ProSub 100TL, and my HT room.

 

[as350_b3]

Richard,

that was excellent! I now have a better understanding of what is the root cause of my addictive behavior.

Is there such a thing as UA - Upgradium Anonymous?

 

[Dreamer]

Richard, Is there such a thing as UA - Upgradium Anonymous?

I can see it now...

"Hi, I'm Richard, and I'm an Audiophile..."

"HI RICHARD"...

 

[Chuck Lee]

Is Decent overkill

The bass from the Summits will provide great bass from the left front and right front side of your room,but you need to equalize the bass pressure in the rest of the room.This is where a couple of Decents or even Depths come into play.
Multiple subs placed on different sides and areas of the room will even out the bass response and more evenly pressurize your room. The bass will sound fuller at lower volumes and will integrate with the whole system better than just using the Summits alone.The bass will seem to reach your ears faster than the woofers from the Summits,and you will notice more bass definition as well.
Multiple subs for me have proven to be more beneficial than a single very expensive sub that can be a pain in the butt to properly place.Single subs despite what you read,do let you know where they are by the sound pressure they exert especially from let's say the left front corner of the room.
I like to run a sub part way along a side wall and the other sub at one third along the rear wall.