HI Folks Newbie Here! Lking for assist in gaining Natural Hi's fron New Electomotion

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Similar to Synder's belief that DBT is the end all for purposes of determining wire "value".

GG

False claim: Again choosing words out of my post and turning it into ludicrous hyper-generalities, even though in practice listening test results supporting that statement is easy to find. I never said it was end all or stated that cables don't make a difference under your hyper-generalized context, however, you can bet that there is a much higher degree of certainty that one would not hear a difference between low end and high end cables just based off of forum members feedback via polls without even resorting to DBX at all. Take it for what it is

I'm not trying to discredit forum members large purchases, their pride or **** off salesmen lurking on the forum who's business depends on the cable mythology, just simply trying to save a fellow ML owner thousands of dollars by advising him to do his own testing/auditions with these objective statistics in mind.

Is that a problem?
 
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anyone trying expensive speaker cable (or mains cable or interconnects) do true blind testing rather than letting their minds play tricks.
How would you explain the results of the following (completely non-scientific) "test": On one occasion I was trying a new cable that I borrowed from my ML dealer (no money had exchanged hands), and while I was listening to a piece of music, my non-audiophile wife went by my music room, stopped, and asked me "what did you change?"; she had no idea that I was trying something new. When I asked her why she was asking, she said that the system sounded much better. Isn't that better than any DBT?

A phenomenon I have experienced is that sometimes on trying a new cable I hear a new instrument in the mix, one I had not heard before with the old cable. On returning to the old cable I found that I could hear that instrument after all, but it was not so prominent; BTW these are cables without any inline boxes containing active or passive components. Bob Stuart of Meridian also commented on it, in the context of DBT, but I can't remember his exact comment. How would you explain that?

BTW, I appreciate your being civil in this discussion. I normally stay out of these discussions as I have encountered some very insulting individuals here.
 
The original poster said his speakers sounded bad. I understand how you feel my friend. My experiences may be similar, perhaps not, you judge.

I was really into cables years ago when Fabio was featured in the mags with all his Krell gear and Transparent cables. Like many deluded readers I saved up for months just to buy a 1M length of Transparent interconnect cable with a black box stuck in the middle of it. I put Armor All on the thing, I buffed it, I cleaned it with a tiny brush and didn't even want to use it because I didn't want it stuck behind the gear, hidden away. I wanted to be able to see that black box doing its magical thing to the sound. I later sold it on Ebay and had a downpayment for a car! Why did I put everything on hold for months so I could acquire.... a cable??

Not to stir the pot but these cable makers have honed and refined the key that opens a male-centric psychological worm hole to stupidity. They turn wire into piles of cash and the disgruntled guy comes back for more again and again. He can't even think straight he wants that 'other' cable so much. He'll say and do anything to get it too. he is captive and miserable.

When it comes to cables, we are endlessly fascinated by them. They make us crazy, obsessed, and out of our minds. we are captured by the artistic design choices, the Python thick heft, the richly woven braided jackets and the scientific illusions created by complex gleaming hardware. Or maybe we like the minimalist approach of the thin caliber, understated cable with its simple brushed connector. There's nothing wrong with all of that since we purchase many many items based on their appearance. Serious looking Audio is no exception. We buy it because it looks the part; whatever part that is that we want it to play.

The joy factor I had was very low with my old B&W, Transparent, Theta sytem of the 90's. I worried constantly that I should be tweaking something, somewhere to make it better, and worrying about the expense of constantly being slightly dissatisfied with it all.

On the other hand the joy factor I've had with my everyday 'hack' Art Studio system has been sky high! It played loud and fast! Never an issue, just music. An Onkyo SACD player (no I can't hear any difference between an SACD disc and the same title standard issue disc), a cheapo Crown Amp, a pair of giant C-Vegas and a couple of home brew Subs that I built myself. It's all wired up with lamp cord, no name power strips and $5 RCA's, and I loved it!

I saw an ad recently and I bought these Aerius-i speakers and now I've got myself back into a state of misery! A high mainteneance set of speakers that don't sound as good as my little Mirage bookshelf speakers.... huh? My experience with these Aerius speakers so far is that they have no bite, no highs, no dynamics, and no life to them all... Oh, "there must be something wrong with them". No, that's just how they sound, that's what people accept as good I guess. Maybe I'm not sophisticated enough, again! I'm told they need an overhaul from a guy who will rebuild the panels. Oh, and they need a different Amp and probably cables too.... I guess I should just get out the Armor All and shut up. They sound awful but at least they'll look good! Worm-hole breached again!

Nuc~
 
How would you explain the results of the following (completely non-scientific) "test": On one occasion I was trying a new cable that I borrowed from my ML dealer (no money had exchanged hands), and while I was listening to a piece of music, my non-audiophile wife went by my music room, stopped, and asked me "what did you change?"; she had no idea that I was trying something new. When I asked her why she was asking, she said that the system sounded much better. Isn't that better than any DBT?

A phenomenon I have experienced is that sometimes on trying a new cable I hear a new instrument in the mix, one I had not heard before with the old cable. On returning to the old cable I found that I could hear that instrument after all, but it was not so prominent; BTW these are cables without any inline boxes containing active or passive components. Bob Stuart of Meridian also commented on it, in the context of DBT, but I can't remember his exact comment. How would you explain that?

BTW, I appreciate your being civil in this discussion. I normally stay out of these discussions as I have encountered some very insulting individuals here.

First off, thanks for your comment about civility. My whole purpose in posting at all was simply to try and persuade the original poster to investigate other avenues before jumping immediately to expensive cables. BTW, I notice you're in Ottawa...my brother and his wife live there (or just outside in Orleans).

Anyway, without actually being there I can't explain your wife's reaction without having actually been there. However, I can guess a few scenarios that could possibly apply:

-you opened or closed some curtains changing the acoustics of the room

-you moved the aiming and positioning of the speakers slightly when installing the new cables

-at an extreme case, you corrected an out of phase cable when installing the new ones

-your wife was in a good mood...things always sound better when you're mood is good (so my psychologist wife tells me!)

...and so on. It's things like this that make true blind testing so important. I'll stress that this isn't aimed just at you or other audiophiles--the same ability of the mind to make things up applies even to "golden ear" professionals. Show me a person who's been mixing for a few years and I'll show you somebody who tweaked the EQ on a mic channel, was happy with the improvement, and only found an hour later that the EQ was in bypass and he'd done nothing. Yeah, I've been there and done that.

(Horrible admission time...it's quite common, particularly with live sound, to keep a spare channel on the mixer so when a diva band member or obnoxious audience member asks for a change you can obviously push a fader or twist a knob without changing a thing. Never once have I failed to be told "that sounds much better, thanks" for doing nothing.)

Anyhow, whatever makes you happy with your system is great. All I'm suggesting is that checking more obvious culprits is worthwhile before spending money--and blind testing is the only way to stop pedants like me questioning your results! :)
 
How would you explain the results of the following (completely non-scientific) "test": Isn't that better than any DBT?

No, this is an example of using yourself as your own supporting authority due to the "non-scientific" nature of the test and falls victim to error and subjectivity again.

One purpose of a controlled test is to reduce possibility for tester error and subjectivity. If anybody including your wife can clearly hear an audible difference sighted, then there should be no problem in a DBX test using the industry standard guidelines for real DBX testing. However, DBX results that I've read about has proven otherwise.

Six or so AVS members did a semi controlled DBX test using a switch box to determine if all amps sound the same under clipping. They almost concluded that they sounded very different until one receiver had Odyssey turned on thus causing the anomaly. So without a controlled test, you and your wife could simply not have ironed out all outside variables, one which Bobbsy forgot to mention that some cables intentionally color the sound. Some high end snake oil cables have 10 times the resistance as cheap blue jeans cables for instance. It's a way for snake oil sales men to make you hear a difference and tell you it's a better difference.
 
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You're right, people still trying to sell the cable mythology to newbie's without disclaimers.

I'm not trying to sell anything to anybody. That certainly applies to expensive wires. Generally speaking, "selling" a personal opinion is a waste of time given the inherent subjectivity of this hobby.

Secondly, I recommended to the OP that he not pursue the "cable swapping" route to resolve his issue. Reference Post No. 6.

You seem to want to pick a fight.

No thank you.

We simply have an honest difference of opinion regarding this issue.

PS: If you can't accept that fact, so be it.
 
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I'm not trying to sell anything to anybody. That certainly applies to expensive wires. Generally speaking, "selling" a personal opinion is a waste of time given the inherent subjectivity of this hobby.

Secondly, I recommended to the OP that he not pursue the "cable swapping" route to resolve his issue. Reference Post No. 6.

You seem to want to pick a fight.

No thank you.

We simply have an honest difference of opinion regarding this issue.

PS: If you can't accept that fact, so be it.

I never accused you of selling snake oil so no need to get defensive.
 
Electromotion ESL? Here's from the ML website:
"To seamlessly blend audio output from the high- and mid-frequency electrostatic panel to the low-frequency woofer the ElectroMotion ESL features a proprietary Vojtko™ topology filter utilizing custom air core coil and low DCR steel laminate inductors, polyester film capacitors in series, and low DF electrolytic capacitors in parallel."

Three non-audiophile-approved parts in the crossover that ML should not be bragging about: 1) icky polyester film caps; 2) icky steel core inductors, and 3) icky electrolytic caps. I would go for a metalized polyprop cap (or better) and then go active XO on the bass.
 
Three non-audiophile-approved parts in the crossover that ML should not be bragging about: 1) icky polyester film caps; 2) icky steel core inductors, and 3) icky electrolytic caps. I would go for a metalized polyprop cap (or better) and then go active XO on the bass.
Tosh, that would cost you more dosh :)
 
Re: Wife walks by and makes comment.... What does it mean?

Very little since pure chance is scientifically proven to be the cause of more that 99.9999% of everything that happens in the universe. More likely she just wanted to participate, to say something to you on that trip by the door, or maybe she knew you were tweaking something and decided to inquire? Maybe she wanted to be a valued contributor in your activity, or maybe just chat a bit. She was half expecting you to say "Oh, nothing yet dear, but I'm just about to hook up these cables..."

After she was hired at a leading Audio Corp as their new Sonic Guru... this was heard in the break room. "One day from the parking lot she heard our latest prototype speaker faintly vibrating the glass of the CEO's office 6 stories up. She quickly did the calculations in her head and texted R&D the optimal crossover numbers for each of the 3 hybrid drivers before entering the building!"


Nuc~
 
The horse keeps getting deader by the hour.

Starting to smell pretty bad.

You've crossed the line insulting a long time forum member.

PS: You folks remind me of religious zealots with no boundaries. A scary thing.

Shame on you. You can't even have a civil conversation.
 
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You've crossed the line insulting a long time forum member.

So it's ok for a long time forum member to bully the new forum members? Because that's pretty much what I see around here from the lurking I've done in the past 3 years or so. Anyway it was clearly a jest due to the absurdity of the comment. Absurd things can be quite funny. :ROFL:

PS: You folks remind me of religious zealots with no boundaries. A scary thing.

Actually the cable believers and people who buy into the mystical audio products are much more in line with religious zealots than the skeptics. They believe in all sorts of claims but once someone comes along to measure it and turn it into objective data they call shenanigans. Case in point Gordon, you turn into a sourpuss when anyone invokes Ethan Winer much like religious people do when Atheists invoke Richard Dawkins.

Stupid science, it ruins everything. Flat earth, nope. Everything revolves around earth, nope. Dragons and Unicorns, nope. :devil:
 
Hi Tch,

The horse continues to get more dead.

For all DBT / DBX believers, no one is changing anybody's mind.

GG

PS: For you and other DBT / DBX believers, why can't you accept the fact that there are honest differences of opinion regarding this issue and move on?
 
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Gordon,

I swore I would never participate in another cable discussion after I was called a "fan boy whore" by a new member, in response to a civil post of mine in another cable discussion. I should have stayed out of this one.
 
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