HI Folks Newbie Here! Lking for assist in gaining Natural Hi's fron New Electomotion

[prcjr]

Hi All,
It's Nice to have Place to come to for assistance regarding our Passion in obtaining Nirvana when it comes to our Audio Obsession! Just purchased a pair of Electromotion ESL Speakers. I am pleased with every aspect of this speakers presentation 'save' the top end, or cymbal presentation. Wonderful sound stage, voices, guitar, horns, even the bass in the low end is more than presentable/pleasing, nice, taut and articulate, even though I have an Abyss S/W coming my way this week. I seem to be unable to achieve a natural cymbal presentation. It sounds really withdrawn when presented as back round passages, and it when it is presented front and center, it sounds more like sizzle than what should be a clear 'strike/tap-ring-reverberate' etc. I've tried the 90 degree tilt up tweak, and that did not seem to help. I removed all my usual tweaks,(2 EVS Ground enhancers on the negative outputs of the amp, A. Maher active speaker tweak), thinking that maybe these would be suppressing the cymbal presentation, but to no avail. Thus far I've tried two amps,one SS Class A Aleph 5 clone from T. Rawson, and a Tubed DJH Superamp,(w/KT88 and the more ethereal KT-66 power tubes), both amps drive the speakers w/ aplomb thru an Atma-Sphere MP-3 Pre, utilizing two sources, (Cary 303/300 and a Tubed Dynaco CDV1, a true timbre champ!,) Primary Cd for Cymbal presentation is Keith Jarrett, Live at the Deer Head INN Track 6 Bye Bye Black Bird from the 6 Min. Mark till the end, Paul Motian's cymbals are splashing all over front and center and I get sizzle, (like my bacon on Sunday morning), instead of a clear distinct delineation of Cymbals being struck and the subsequent ring that a true to life cymbal makes. Interconnects are A-Zen Silver Ref. and Purist Colossus. Speaker cable is AZ Holagram II Spades. I have a CARDAS CAB Banana to Spade adapter at the speakers binding post. For what it is,it is a thick and beefy adapter. Could that be the issue, or is it that maybe the speakers require more break in time? I've owned a lot of speakers, (Energy, Silverline, VMPS, etc.) over the years and never encountered this issue. Any help or guidance is most appreciated. Thank you for your indulgence!
Paul C.

 

[Bernard]

Welcome to the group. It would be nice if you broke up your post into readable paragraphs. It's hard to read as-is.

 

[roberto]

Hola. If you want to cool down the highs, and get a nice timbre at the cymbals, keep the tube amp and do some research at the speakesr cables and interconnect. With cables, you can adjust the tonal balance of the sound. As an example, try to find cables made by Nordost, and use the model Blue Heaven. These cables are very clean at the top, making the cymbals to shine. O course, out there are a lot of cables that are capable to do the same thing. You might get these cables used. Do not use other model from Nordost, if you do not want that bright sound. Happy listening!

 

[MPS]

Hola. If you want to cool down the highs, and get a nice timbre at the cymbals, keep the tube amp and do some research at the speakesr cables and interconnect. With cables, you can adjust the tonal balance of the sound. As an example, try to find cables made by Nordost, and use the model Blue Heaven. These cables are very clean at the top, making the cymbals to shine. O course, out there are a lot of cables that are capable to do the same thing. You might get these cables used. Do not use other model from Nordost, if you do not want that bright sound. Happy listening!

Hmmm.. isn't Blue Heaven the most "bright" cable from Nordost? Although I'm not sure if it's more brightness or lack of "body". I prefer Heimdall for good overall balance while still reasonably priced.

 

[roberto]

Hola. That´s the Red Dawn, not the Blue Heaven. And also, for the bright concern, all silver cables are bright if you use them in cone speakers, as a general rule, (some perhaps not) and not with the electrostatic kind. But as I said before, Nortdost is not the only cables available with outstanding sound. There are tons of possibilities and also to obtain the right timbre and resolution. Keep in mind that the Electromotions are very cable dependent... Happy listening!

 

[Gordon Gray]

Using cables as tone controls can turn out to be a very expensive / frustrating proposition.

Especially when the source of the problem could be elsewhere.

Personally, I'd continue to play with speaker positioning.

I've also become a believer in using the same brand of cable for all wiring. Minimizes the cable "voicing" issue.

GG

 

[Larry]

To carry Gordon's line of thought one (perhaps heretical) step further, why not try tone controls, or else a parametric equalizer? Just use them with caution.

Larry

 

[prcjr]

Thank You All for your Responses! Thank you for the Welcome Bernard! Sorry for my paragraphical faux pas, as it was 2:30AM when I posted so I ranted a bit. I'll improve upon that.

Hola Roberto and MPS! Other than Nordost Heimdall,($$), I am uncertain as to which Nordost Cable your recommending, "Blue Heaven or Red Dawn?" (And yes, I will drive them w/ my tube amp!)

Thank you Gorden for your response! I have taken more care in the set up of the speakers, getting the positioning right. This has helped and I went back to the 90 Degree tilt which now has also helped, as my seating position is relatively close at 9 foot.

Hi Larry! Yes it is heretical to talk about adding a tone control! But I do happen to have buried in my basement a Perreaux TC2 dual channel tone control unit. Maybe, just maybe, I'll give it a whirl--!

Aside from getting the speaker positioning correct, I played the interconnect and power cable switcha-roo game, (what a pain), and came up w/finding an improvement, placing certain PC's in the system. BMI EEls' won out over BlackSand, Michal Wolff's Carbon Gain, and Vh audio Flavor 4. Maybe I'll look to invest in higher quality PC's?

Again, Thank You All for your responses, and have a Wonderful Labor Day!
Regards,
Paul C, Jr.

 

[Tosh]

... Thus far I've tried two amps,one SS Class A Aleph 5 clone from T. Rawson, and a Tubed DJH Superamp,(w/KT88 and the more ethereal KT-66 power tubes), both amps drive the speakers w/ aplomb thru an Atma-Sphere MP-3 Pre, utilizing two sources, (Cary 303/300 and a Tubed Dynaco CDV1, a true timbre champ!,) Primary Cd for Cymbal presentation is Keith Jarrett, Live at the Deer Head INN Track 6 Bye Bye Black Bird from the 6 Min. Mark till the end, Paul Motian's cymbals are splashing all over front and center and I get sizzle, (like my bacon on Sunday morning), instead of a clear distinct delineation of Cymbals being struck and the subsequent ring that a true to life cymbal makes. ...

I would not make any judgements on sound from a Rawson clone, as the guy is an 'apple knocker' (in addition to being an intellectual property thief). It also sounds like you have too many tubes upstream (and thus more distortion).

How do cymbals sound on other recordings? Live recordings can get a bit erm, unbalanced...

 

[roberto]

Thank You All for your Responses! Thank you for the Welcome Bernard! Sorry for my paragraphical faux pas, as it was 2:30AM when I posted so I ranted a bit. I'll improve upon that.

Hola Roberto and MPS! Other than Nordost Heimdall,($$), I am uncertain as to which Nordost Cable your recommending, "Blue Heaven or Red Dawn?" (And yes, I will drive them w/ my tube amp!)

Thank you Gorden for your response! I have taken more care in the set up of the speakers, getting the positioning right. This has helped and I went back to the 90 Degree tilt which now has also helped, as my seating position is relatively close at 9 foot.

Hi Larry! Yes it is heretical to talk about adding a tone control! But I do happen to have buried in my basement a Perreaux TC2 dual channel tone control unit. Maybe, just maybe, I'll give it a whirl--!

Aside from getting the speaker positioning correct, I played the interconnect and power cable switcha-roo game, (what a pain), and came up w/finding an improvement, placing certain PC's in the system. BMI EEls' won out over BlackSand, Michal Wolff's Carbon Gain, and Vh audio Flavor 4. Maybe I'll look to invest in higher quality PC's?

Again, Thank You All for your responses, and have a Wonderful Labor Day!
Regards,
Paul C, Jr.

Hola Paul. When I did recommend Nordost Blue Heaven cables, was just a brand. You can use a less expensive cables like DHLabs silversonic. There many brands, that will make your Electromotions to sing along with the music. You can try to buy them used, fro the fraction of their cost. I do know too, that the Blue Heaven cables has being discontinued by Nordost. You might get a very good deal at ebay. Also, I think that the Cable Company has a letting you for some time, the cables that you want to buy, and make your decision better. I wish to you a very happy listening!

 

[snyderkv]

Hi All,
It's Nice to have Place to come to for assistance regarding our Passion in obtaining Nirvana when it comes to our Audio Obsession! Just purchased a pair of Electromotion ESL Speakers. I am pleased with every aspect of this speakers presentation 'save' the top end, or cymbal presentation. Wonderful sound stage, voices, guitar, horns, even the bass in the low end is more than presentable/pleasing, nice, taut and articulate, even though I have an Abyss S/W coming my way this week. I seem to be unable to achieve a natural cymbal presentation. It sounds really withdrawn when presented as back round passages, and it when it is presented front and center, it sounds more like sizzle than what should be a clear 'strike/tap-ring-reverberate' etc. I've tried the 90 degree tilt up tweak, and that did not seem to help. I removed all my usual tweaks,(2 EVS Ground enhancers on the negative outputs of the amp, A. Maher active speaker tweak), thinking that maybe these would be suppressing the cymbal presentation, but to no avail. Thus far I've tried two amps,one SS Class A Aleph 5 clone from T. Rawson, and a Tubed DJH Superamp,(w/KT88 and the more ethereal KT-66 power tubes), both amps drive the speakers w/ aplomb thru an Atma-Sphere MP-3 Pre, utilizing two sources, (Cary 303/300 and a Tubed Dynaco CDV1, a true timbre champ!,) Primary Cd for Cymbal presentation is Keith Jarrett, Live at the Deer Head INN Track 6 Bye Bye Black Bird from the 6 Min. Mark till the end, Paul Motian's cymbals are splashing all over front and center and I get sizzle, (like my bacon on Sunday morning), instead of a clear distinct delineation of Cymbals being struck and the subsequent ring that a true to life cymbal makes. Interconnects are A-Zen Silver Ref. and Purist Colossus. Speaker cable is AZ Holagram II Spades. I have a CARDAS CAB Banana to Spade adapter at the speakers binding post. For what it is,it is a thick and beefy adapter. Could that be the issue, or is it that maybe the speakers require more break in time? I've owned a lot of speakers, (Energy, Silverline, VMPS, etc.) over the years and never encountered this issue. Any help or guidance is most appreciated. Thank you for your indulgence!
Paul C.

Before spending all your money on cables that cost more than your speakers, realize that most people can't hear a difference and most if not every controlled blind test conducted has proven the same (unless the manufacturer intentionally alters the source signal by adding resistors/filters or not simply passing the signal like cheaper brands), I would not want to become another victim of snake oil.

I would audition cables yourself blind or not to see if you can discern a difference before going that route minding ofcourse psycho acoustics and expectation bias. I'm sure for the price of cables, you could make really large and noticeable differences else ware like better speakers, room acoustics, audyssey upgrade, better recorded source material etc. Nobody including myself can hear the difference between my cheap blue jeans cable and one many times the price.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Snyder,

I hope we can keep this discussion going absent the issue you raised. Paul seems to be a very nice, sincere individual who is looking for some answers to the anomaly he is hearing.

This forum, as well as many others, have discussed this ad nauseum and no one, on either side of the argument, is going to change their minds.

Hopefully we can avoid the neurosis (eternal discussion with no resolution) that has inflicted one well known website in particular. AKA WBF.

Best,

Gordon

PS: You might want to contact Phelonious Ponk on the WBF forum. And no, I'm not making this name up. You two would be soul mates on the cable / DBT issue.

 

[|Tch0rT|]

How about the cheapest possible solution? Take them back to the store, they might be defective. I like how that wasn't even considered but buying crazy expensive wires was.

 

[snyderkv]

How about the cheapest possible solution? Take them back to the store, they might be defective. I like how that wasn't even considered but buying crazy expensive wires was.

Exactly, and I was just trying to help a fellow ML owner save thousands, not start a cable war.

 

[snyderkv]

Hi Snyder,

I hope we can keep this discussion going absent the issue you raised. Paul seems to be a very nice, sincere individual who is looking for some answers to the anomaly he is hearing.

This forum, as well as many others, have discussed this ad nauseum and no one, on either side of the argument, is going to change their minds.

Hopefully we can avoid the neurosis (eternal discussion with no resolution) that has inflicted one well known website in particular. AKA WBF.

Best,

Gordon

PS: You might want to contact Phelonious Ponk on the WBF forum. And no, I'm not making this name up. You two would be soul mates on the cable / DBT issue.

But there is no issue to debate here as I just pointed out a couple objective facts. It's convenient of you to focus on the DBX test comment to discredit the fact that there is an overwhelming majority of people (88% on one forum poll) who cannot hear a difference between cables. These subjective opinions from common forum members which you hold to a higher degree (trust your ears), further supports controlled testing results. So we should put Paul into the majority category before suggesting he spend thousands on speaker cables that cost more than his speakers. Wouldn't it be cheaper to buy new speakers or play with acoustics?

If I have to hurt a few salesmen lurking on this forum to save a fellow ML owner thousands of dollars then so be it but I did suggest he audition the cables first before buying into the cable mythology. If there is a difference I'd suspect psychoacoustics, expectation bias, faulty equipment or high resistance cables that don't simply pass the signal on are at play.

 

[Bobbsy]

Hello. I'm Bob and I'm a retired sound engineer with something like 40 years experience in the industry, including the design and installation of 2 large studio facilities and more recordings, edits and mixes (live and studio) than I could ever remember. I joined this forum purely to try and save the original poster some money.

If your new speakers don't sound right to you, there are a number of possible causes:

1. They may be faulty in which case reporting the problem to the retailer or manufacturer would be the way to go.

2. As they are excellent speakers, it may simply be that they're giving you an accurate representation of the recorded sound rather than the sugar coated glossy one that many hifi speakers present. People visiting studios and listening to mixes happening on proper monitors often comment on the very "flat" sound--but this is because monitors are chosen to reproduce what's there (good or bad) rather than make everything sound wonderful.

3. The acoustics of your room and/or the speaker positioning may need some work.

None of these, however, involve your speaker cables and, if you were able to do a true blind test rather than one where you know the cost of each competitor, I can guarantee you'd hear no difference between a $6000 piece of snake oil and a dollar or two worth of mains cable. The material you're listening two from professional sources was almost certainly monitored via stock standard copper cable.

Somebody earlier recommended an A/B test (good idea) but then went on to say that it didn't matter whether it was blind or not (bad idea). The human brain is highly susceptible to an "audio placebo effect". If you know in advance (or think you know) what's on test, your mind will make you think the expensive one (or the recommended one) sounds better.

An excellent presentation about all these psycho acoustic effects can be seen in from a meeting at the AES (Audio Engineering Society) a few years back. Ethan Winer, the chairman is a highly respected audio engineer with many recordings (and books on the topic) to his name. Pay special attention to the presentations by JJ Johnson (about an A/B amp test) and Poppy Crum about the role expectations play in listening. If you're really interested, it's worth downloading Ethan's wave files to do your own comparisons.

Anyway, my purpose in posting this is not to start a flame war. If you genuinely think cables make a difference and want to spend lots of money, that's you're absolute right. However, my strong recommendation to the original poster is to look into the three suggestions I made rather than spending a ton of money on cables (which, on the inside, will almost certainly be normal cable in a fancy wrapper).

Nice to meet you all.

 

[MPS]

If you are not happy with the sound you are getting then I don't recommend stepping in to cable mess but if sound is already good and you are looking in to make it even better then yes why not see (and listen) what different cables can do for you. There is no need to spend money unnecessary as many dealers can provide demo cables for testing.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Bobbsy,

Regarding Ethan, your perspective is one side of the equation. Many, like me, refuse to accept the fact that all things audio can be measured and those measurements create a defensible basis for determining what matters (and does not matter) in evaluating the quality, and subjective response to a listening experience. His position is obviously self serving because he sells acoustic products that support his premise and fills his bank account.

Highly respected? Please. He is clearly a legend in his own mind.

Similar to Synder's belief that DBT is the end all for purposes of determining wire "value".

GG

 

[|Tch0rT|]

I imagine that the lochness monster, bigfoot, and little green men enjoy their expensive pseudo-science charlatan/televangelist products from fine gentleman who have no other interests invested in their products other than for people just to enjoy them.

 

[Bobbsy]

Hi Bobbsy,

Regarding Ethan, your perspective is one side of the equation. Many, like me, refuse to accept the fact that all things audio can be measured and those measurements create a defensible basis for determining what matters (and does not matter) in evaluating the quality, and subjective response to a listening experience. His position is obviously self serving because he sells acoustic products that support his premise and fills his bank account.

Highly respected? Please. He is clearly a legend in his own mind.

Similar to Synder's belief that DBT is the end all for purposes of determining wire "value".

GG

Like it or not, Ethan IS very respected within the Audio Engineering Society community if not audiophiles. For those who may not know, the AES is responsible for setting a lot of the standards the recordings you listen to are made with and adhere to.

Whether or not everything in audio can be measured (my view...it probably can with the right tools but we don't have all the right tools) the main point I was trying to make is how easy it is to fool yourself into hearing differences and improvements that aren't there. In that video, JJ Johnson's mention of the amp test where everything was a single cheap amp but the click of a large switch convinced listeners that they were hearing big differences and improvements sums the whole thing up. If you're going to try highly expensive speaker cables, then somehow arrange a friend to help you blind test them. Don't just install them with the very large till receipt in you hand and assume you hear improvements to justify your purchase.

Regarding Ethan again, yes he sells acoustic products but that is entirely justified. The acoustics of the rooms (both the studio and the control area) make a far bigger difference to the recording quality and the ability to monitor things properly than any bit of cable--and often even more than things like microphones and speakers. If you're trying to get improvements by changing cables while listening in an untreated room, that's just pointless. Just to put things in perspective, last studios I built, almost a third of the budget was on acoustic analysis and treatments. Believe me, I'm a cheap S.O.B. so that amount wasn't spent lightly--but it was money well spent.

Anyway, all I ask is that the OP consider the other options before buying different cable--and that anyone trying expensive speaker cable (or mains cable or interconnects) do true blind testing rather than letting their minds play tricks.