Getting the Clarities--but what do I power them with?

[Robonaut]

After a lot of thought, I’ve finally decided to get the MartinLogan Clarity speakers. While I feel that the Vantages are certainly worth twice the price, I really need to upgrade some of my electronics, and I won’t be able to do that if I spring for the Vantages. Also, if I get the Clarities now, I can always later use them as surrounds and use the Vantages for mains.

So, with that issue resolved, I now need to figure out how I’m going to power my new electrostatics. I’ve heard the Clarities being powered by both Rotel and Denon receivers, so I feel that I don’t need to go with separates in order to get good sound of them. Also, I’m starting to become very interested in SACD, so I’ll probably pick up a player when I pick up my receiver.

Here are the options that I’m considering so far:

OPTION ONE:

Receiver: Marantz SR-8001 ($1,999)
SACD player: Oppo 970HD connected via HDMI ($150)

PROS:
--SR-8001 has a toroidal power supply, which should help with powering the Clarities’ low impendence load.
--SR-8001 has HDMI 1.2 instead of 1.1.
--Oppo is cheap and has received sterling reviews.
--Could possibly pick up SR-8001 refurbed for a substantial savings.

CONS:
--Oppo converts SACD to PCM before sending it via HDMI.
--Still seems to be quite a few bugs sending SACD/DVD-Audio over HDMI.
--Haven’t personally heard Marantz with the Clarities.


OPTION TWO:

Receiver: Denon AVR-4306 ($1,999)
SACD player: Denon DVD-2930CI connected via Denon Link III ($849.00)

PROS:
--Denon Link connection seems superior to HDMI for SACD/DVD-Audio.
--I’ve heard the Clarities powered by a Denon receiver and liked what I heard.
--Could possibly pick up both Denon pieces refurbed at a substantial discount.

CONS:
--No toroidal power supply.
--Not sure if the receiver or player converts DSD to PCM (I suspect that at least on them does, though).


OPTION THREE:

Receiver: Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSi ($1,500)
SACD player: Pioneer Elite DV-79AVi connected via iLink ($1,000)

PROS:

--iLink seems superior to HDMI for SACD/DVD-Audio.
--My Pioneer Elite PRO-1130HD is the single best piece of A/V gear I’ve ever bought. I like to support companies who make products which please me.
--The VSX-84TXSi costs 25% less than either the Marantz or the Denon.

CONS:
--No toroidal power supply.
--Not sure if the receiver or player converts DSD to PCM (I suspect that at least one of them does, though).
--Haven’t personally heard Pioneer Elite with the Clarities.
--The VSX-84TSXi may have a bug which causes it to output the LFE channel in a multi-channel feed 10db lower than it should be.


Right now, I’m really leaning towards Option Two, since I heard the Denon with the Clarities and was pleased with the results. The toroidal on the Marantz is kind of tempting, though, since the Clarities are supposed to be a bit of a difficult load.

What do you folks think? Are there any other options that I should be looking at?

 

[Pcar928fan]

Screw the "i link" and all those other crappy connections and just go with 6 GOOD RCA interconnects and get whatever DVD player you want that supports SACD and DVD-A and hook it up to any receiver that accepts that analog input.

You will have a bundle of snakes but you can get some really nice RCA's for the cost of that Denon cable and the Pioneer one is probably the same way.

I also really liked my Pioneer gear! I havd/had (depending on when you read this) a VSX49TX selling on ebay right now (the auction ends at 8:30 tonight), and I have a Pro 510 Elite TV and a 47A DVD player. I really liked all of it. I think it even looks better than it sounds and it sounds damn good!

I have to admit having looked at the "flagship" Elite gear the other day...it is CHEAP by comparison to the VSX49TX...now THAT was a FLAGSHIP receiver!

You really can't go wrong with any of your options but you can get just as good quality and save some money by going w/ some good RCA interconnects IMHO vs. the proprietary cables.

 

[socialxray]

I have read in a review that the Pioneer has a high noise floor which means that at high volumes you may hear some hiss. Not really sure if this is true or not because I haven't heard it but I thought you should know.

DSD is almost always converted to PCM. This is because it is easier to do bass management, distance settings, etc. in PCM. I would check the website and if it is not mentioned consider it a PCM conversion.

Check to see if the Marantz or the Denon decode DSD without converting to PCM. If that is the case you can hook up the player to the receiver with a digital link and let the receiver do the conversion to analog.

Although I really like Denon I would definitely want to hear the Marantz because of the toroidal transformer.

 

[ralflar]

I think your decision to save on the speakers and invest the difference in components instead is a good one.

Are you interested in SACD two channel or multi-channel mode?

Multi-channel use would require that you buy a HT receiver. If it is superior 2 channel sound that you want, you have better options.

For instance, I am confident that a NAD C372 integrated amp or a NAD C162/C272 pre/power combo is superior to any of those receivers, for a fraction of the price. I have auditioned the C372 with Maggies (1.6); it had absolutely no problems to drive the Maggies. It sounded great.

The question is: do you like battleship gray? (I don't or I would have bought the C162/C272 combo. NAD's design choice is tragic!)

Regarding the player, I used a Denon 2910 for a while, and liked it, so my vote goes to the 2930, assuming that it shares the 2910's virtues (reliablity, very good video and good audio for the price) and probably improves upon them.

But SACD or not, if a computer is available to act as the music server, get a Squeezebox instead. It only costs $300 and at least in my system clearly sounds better than the 2910. I'd wager it sounds better than the 2930, too.

Multi-channel is a different story of course.

 

[Charliemike]

After a lot of thought, I’ve finally decided to get the MartinLogan Clarity speakers. While I feel that the Vantages are certainly worth twice the price, I really need to upgrade some of my electronics, and I won’t be able to do that if I spring for the Vantages. Also, if I get the Clarities now, I can always later use them as surrounds and use the Vantages for mains.

So, with that issue resolved, I now need to figure out how I’m going to power my new electrostatics. I’ve heard the Clarities being powered by both Rotel and Denon receivers, so I feel that I don’t need to go with separates in order to get good sound of them. Also, I’m starting to become very interested in SACD, so I’ll probably pick up a player when I pick up my receiver.

Here are the options that I’m considering so far:

OPTION ONE:

Receiver: Marantz SR-8001 ($1,999)
SACD player: Oppo 970HD connected via HDMI ($150)

PROS:
--SR-8001 has a toroidal power supply, which should help with powering the Clarities’ low impendence load.
--SR-8001 has HDMI 1.2 instead of 1.1.
--Oppo is cheap and has received sterling reviews.
--Could possibly pick up SR-8001 refurbed for a substantial savings.

CONS:
--Oppo converts SACD to PCM before sending it via HDMI.
--Still seems to be quite a few bugs sending SACD/DVD-Audio over HDMI.
--Haven’t personally heard Marantz with the Clarities.


OPTION TWO:

Receiver: Denon AVR-4306 ($1,999)
SACD player: Denon DVD-2930CI connected via Denon Link III ($849.00)

PROS:
--Denon Link connection seems superior to HDMI for SACD/DVD-Audio.
--I’ve heard the Clarities powered by a Denon receiver and liked what I heard.
--Could possibly pick up both Denon pieces refurbed at a substantial discount.

CONS:
--No toroidal power supply.
--Not sure if the receiver or player converts DSD to PCM (I suspect that at least on them does, though).


OPTION THREE:

Receiver: Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSi ($1,500)
SACD player: Pioneer Elite DV-79AVi connected via iLink ($1,000)

PROS:

--iLink seems superior to HDMI for SACD/DVD-Audio.
--My Pioneer Elite PRO-1130HD is the single best piece of A/V gear I’ve ever bought. I like to support companies who make products which please me.
--The VSX-84TXSi costs 25% less than either the Marantz or the Denon.

CONS:
--No toroidal power supply.
--Not sure if the receiver or player converts DSD to PCM (I suspect that at least on them does, though).
--Haven’t personally heard Pioneer Elite with the Clarities.
--The VSX-84TSXi may have a bug which causes it to output the LFE channel in a multi-channel feed 10db lower than it should be.


Right now, I’m really leaning towards Option Two, since I heard the Denon with the Clarities and was pleased with the results. The toroidal on the Marantz is kind of tempting, though, since the Clarities are supposed to be a bit of a difficult load.

What do you folks think? Are there any other options that I should be looking at?

I first became obsessed with MLs after hearing Claritys powered by a Pioneer Elite receiver. Can't go wrong with that but listen to other opinions as I didn't get the Pioneer either

 

[Charliemike]

I think your decision to save on the speakers and invest the difference in components instead is a good one.

Are you interested in SACD two channel or multi-channel mode?

Multi-channel use would require that you buy a HT receiver. If it is superior 2 channel sound that you want, you have better options.

For instance, I am confident that a NAD C372 integrated amp or a NAD C162/C272 pre/power combo is superior to any of those receivers, for a fraction of the price. I have auditioned the C372 with Maggies (1.6); it had absolutely no problems to drive the Maggies. It sounded great.

The question is: do you like battleship gray? (I don't or I would have bought the C162/C272 combo. NAD's design choice is tragic!)

Regarding the player, I used a Denon 2910 for a while, and liked it, so my vote goes to the 2930, assuming that it shares the 2910's virtues (reliablity, very good video and good audio for the price) and probably improves upon them.

But SACD or not, if a computer is available to act as the music server, get a Squeezebox instead. It only costs $300 and at least in my system clearly sounds better than the 2910. I'd wager it sounds better than the 2930, too.

Multi-channel is a different story of course.

I was really close to getting the NAD 162/272 combo but I wanted more than 2-ch. I agree with you though, it isn't a bad setup for what it is.

 

[Steve]

Another option to consider, Outlaw Audio makes seperates that would fit within the price range you are considering. I use an outlaw pre/processor with an outlaw amp to power my Claritys. I am very pleased with the performance.

On the source, I have a Sony SACD player, that outputs analog to the amp for SACD, or coax to a Benchmark DAC1 for 2 channel redbook CD. The CD to the DAC, to the pre in bypass mode sounds very, very nice. I am a firm believer that the digital to analog coversion is the most critical part of digital music, so splurging there will yield the best results.

Also, you might consider putting money aside for a good sub. I found the Claritys to be a bit thin on bass with certain types of music. I added a used REL sub (purchased off audiogon), which compliments the Claritys very nicely.

Good luck, and welcome to the club!

 

[MickeyVee]

If you get a chance to listen to the Clarity's with the Rotel 1067, go for it. It does not have all of the toys (HDMI, i.Link, etc) but it sure sounds good. It's a 3 year old AVR but is probably the best sounding in its price range (from the review's I've read).
In the current issue of The Perfect Vision, it's voted the A/V Reciever of the Year.. not bad for a three year old AVR.. Power is excellent, DSP processing is excellent, very flexible setup, amd more.. I love mine..

 

[Thai]

I would go with Denon receiver, but would pick something other than Denon when it comes to DVD/SACD player. Denon DVD/SACD players have a history of not being reliable...and their current batch is no exception. I initially went with Denon 1930, but got frustrated with issues that i gave up after 2 players. Stay away from denon players. I finally went with old-reliable Sony DVD player.

Denon receivers are excellent IMHO. My Denon receiver is powering the Vantages without issue. No overheat. It is warm to touch (at worst) after over 4 hours of continuous playing at moderate volume. And if you read reviews on the 4306, then you will see that it is a very impressive receiver (underrated EQUAL power to each channel, able to handle 4 ohms well, and very well constructed). So, BEFORE you discount the Vantages, i would consider them again but match it with Denon 4306. (And yes, i did test my system with Matrix and other high action, high intense action movies.)

I also heard that the Pioneer Elite receivers do make more noise than other high-end receivers. The only other receiver that i would consider beside Denon is Yamaha. Maybe a distant third is Harman Kardon. I like to stick to BIG companies, rather than small internet-only companies.

Oh yeah, if you like auto-EQ (receiver automatically equalizes your speaker according to room acoustics...a very good thing if you're not an expert), then Denon is the way to go with Audyssey. I love what my receiver has done with my speakers! Yamaha is good too with YPAO.

 

[Robonaut]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! As always, lots of good advice.

I was originally considering getting a Parasound Halo P3 preamp with the A23 amplifier, but I know that I'm going to want to go 5.1 some time in the future (probably a year from now, or so), and it seemed like kind of a waste to invest in a 2 channel system when I knew I was going to replace it. Also, I really want to get into SACD. I have this unfortunate trait where I'm compelled to use the best connection available for a given format, so, if I went 2 channel with the Parasound, I'd want to get a player with XLR outputs, which would mean big $$$. By going with one of the higher-end mass market receivers, I can use a digital connection to get a much better cost to performance ratio. (By the way, the Denon Link seems to just be a standard Cat 5 ethernet cable, while iLink seems to just be a standard Firewire cable, so there doesn't seem to be a lot of expense involved--I think Denon even gives you a Denon Link cable with the DVD-2930CI...)

As for using NAD, Rotel, or Outlaw gear, I looked at all three, but none of them seem to offer HDMI, which means that my Toshiba HD-DVD player can't be hooked up digitally. None of them have iLink (or an equivalent) to hook up SACD/DVD-Audio digitally, either.

As far as using a computer as a source, I do have a PC in my home theater room, but the fan's loud enough to be heard during quiet passages, which is part of the reason that I'd like to get a stand alone player. Also, I can't play SACD or DVD-Audio on the PC (that I'm aware of).

I think that the Pioneer Elite may definitely be out. It seems that it does have an issue with processing multi-channel digital audio (it drops the LFE channel by 10 db). A fix is supposedly in the works, but who knows when it might actually see the light of day? Also, a couple of you indicated that it has a high noise floor--that would be a deal breaker for me. My current receiver (Harman Kardon DPR-2005) has zero noise floor--if I pause a CD I can turn the volume to the max and hear, literally, no hiss. I quite like that receiver, actually, but it has a few flaws that are starting to bug me and it supposedly can have problems driving low impedance speakers.

 

[DTB300]

I was originally considering getting a Parasound Halo P3 preamp with the A23 amplifier, but I know that I'm going to want to go 5.1 some time in the future (probably a year from now, or so), and it seemed like kind of a waste to invest in a 2 channel system when I knew I was going to replace it.

If you purchase a Pre Amp with a HT Passthrough, then you can have the nice two channel setup, but also add HT later on and not have to change what you have invested in your 2 channel.

As for using NAD, Rotel, or Outlaw gear, I looked at all three, but none of them seem to offer HDMI, which means that my Toshiba HD-DVD player can't be hooked up digitally. None of them have iLink (or an equivalent) to hook up SACD/DVD-Audio digitally, either.

You can still play your movies with the digital output, just not music, music output is what I believe you are looking for right?

For movies you can hook up the HDMI to your TV, then use the Optical out to the recevier for the sound. I do this now with my Oppo and it works great - again for movies.

Dan

 

[Robonaut]

If you purchase a Pre Amp with a HT Passthrough, then you can have the nice two channel setup, but also add HT later on and not have to change what you have invested in your 2 channel.

Interesting. Is it easy to determine if a pre amp does this? Do you know of any models for under $1,000?

You can still play your movies with the digital output, just not music, music output is what I believe you are looking for right?

For movies you can hook up the HDMI to your TV, then use the Optical out to the recevier for the sound. I do this now with my Oppo and it works great - again for movies.

That works for normal DVDs but Blu-Ray and HD-DVD can only digitally output the new hi-rez audio formats over HDMI , which is kind of why I want a receiver with HDMI.

 

[jjqiv]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTB300
If you purchase a Pre Amp with a HT Passthrough, then you can have the nice two channel setup, but also add HT later on and not have to change what you have invested in your 2 channel.

Interesting. Is it easy to determine if a pre amp does this? Do you know of any models for under $1,000?

Pass Through/Unity Gain is not required. Its a "Nice to Have" feature. Without it, you have to remember the exact volume setting on the 2 channel preamp everytime you want to use AV Processor/Reciever (i.e. to maintain consistent main left and right channel volume balances). You can pretty much use just about any preamp that you wish.

 

[Pcar928fan]

Oh yeah, if you like auto-EQ (receiver automatically equalizes your speaker according to room acoustics...a very good thing if you're not an expert), then Denon is the way to go with Audyssey. I love what my receiver has done with my speakers! Yamaha is good too with YPAO.

My Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX did not seem to make any more noise than anything else and it also does the auto cal but maybe not as effectively as the Audyssey system. I have never compared them. I don't think there is anything more beautiful than the Elite gear either. Though the new top stuff w/ the HDMI inputs is SIGNIFICANTLY less high end than the previous generation of flagship products. The 49 being particularly awesome! BTW, mine is for sale, but I do not have the original box so prefer to sell locally or at least in Central Tx maybe even D/FW or Houston area.

 

[Pcar928fan]

As for using NAD, Rotel, or Outlaw gear, I looked at all three, but none of them seem to offer HDMI, which means that my Toshiba HD-DVD player can't be hooked up digitally. None of them have iLink (or an equivalent) to hook up SACD/DVD-Audio digitally, either.

I realize that you might like to use the highest TECH connection, but that is RARELY the BEST QUALITY connection! Look at optical digital vs. RCA digital. If you want a QUALITY interconnect you will spend MANY hundreds of $$$ on a nice clear pure glass optical cable, for the same money you can buy a SUPER NICE audioquest copperhead or better interconnect.

HDMI, well, when 1.3 shows up you will be in good shape for audio and video, right now you are not getting it all and there may not even be REALLY high quality cables for that. If you are using Nordost or like to your speakers and then just some CAT 5 or whatever between your gear are you REALLY doing yourself any good? Not sure...YMMV.

As for the Hi-rez outputs...well, you better slow down because until HDMI V1.3 is out you WON'T get those over the current HDMI gear either. Not ready for prime time yet. I would be thinking about getting something more like the end of the year or first of next year if you want the HD audio over HDMI.

What I am saying is to rule something out because it does not have one kind of link or another is in some ways cutting off your nose to spite your face. There WILL BE options if the market demands it.

 

[JohnP]

I think your decision to save on the speakers and invest the difference in components instead is a good one.

I would have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. If it was me I would invest as much as I could afford into the speakers and then work on getting good components, piece by piece. Actually that's exactly what I did and it's working out very well. Either way, do some serious searching on Audiogon and you should be able to pick up a great pre/pro for not much money. Right now there are several Classe SSP-25's for right around a grand. A Classe CA-100 or 200 amp would power those speakers well and sound beautiful. Just my thoughts, good luck!

John

 

[ralflar]

If a future speaker upgrade was ruled out I would do just what you suggest - focus on speakers now until funds are available for sources.

OTOH robonaut appears to have an upgrade plan in place, i.e. spend around 5k on Clarities plus new components, including SACD, enjoy all that for a while, then get Vantages, possibly, and use the Clarities as rears. A sound plan, IMO, especially if robonaut's current components are as inferior to those new options as his "really need to upgrade" statement indicates.

Anyway, as we all know, once the ML bug bites, upgrades will follow either way...

 

[jerseydiplomat]

I realize that you might like to use the highest TECH connection, but that is RARELY the BEST QUALITY connection! Look at optical digital vs. RCA digital. If you want a QUALITY interconnect you will spend MANY hundreds of $$$ on a nice clear pure glass optical cable, for the same money you can buy a SUPER NICE audioquest copperhead or better interconnect.

HDMI, well, when 1.3 shows up you will be in good shape for audio and video, right now you are not getting it all and there may not even be REALLY high quality cables for that. If you are using Nordost or like to your speakers and then just some CAT 5 or whatever between your gear are you REALLY doing yourself any good? Not sure...YMMV.

As for the Hi-rez outputs...well, you better slow down because until HDMI V1.3 is out you WON'T get those over the current HDMI gear either. Not ready for prime time yet. I would be thinking about getting something more like the end of the year or first of next year if you want the HD audio over HDMI.

What I am saying is to rule something out because it does not have one kind of link or another is in some ways cutting off your nose to spite your face. There WILL BE options if the market demands it.

i'm a big fan of your system and i'm looking at some rotel equipment to hook up with some vistas i plan on buying later this year. i'm hoping at that time they incorporate hdmi into their new pre-amps bc even with HDMI 1.1 you can take advantage of the next gen formats. due to the fact the hd dvd players have on board decoders for trueHD the signals can be sent over HDMI by LPCM to a receiver. in the case of the blu-ray players the disk have enough storage to hold PCM so they can send it out the same way.

HDMI 1.3 just allows for a receiver with a new generation decoder to handle the next generation formats. however, if the player has an on board decoder and the receiver has HDMI or even multi-channel inputs you can take advantage of the next gen formats without HDMI 1.3

 

[Pcar928fan]

HDMI 1.3 just allows for a receiver with a new generation decoder to handle the next generation formats. however, if the player has an on board decoder and the receiver has HDMI or even multi-channel inputs you can take advantage of the next gen formats without HDMI 1.3

Obviously I missed my HDMI primer somewhere along the way. I was under the impression that the next gen audio was NOT available on anything pre 1.3 HDMI.

Sorry for the confusion and don't hold your breath w/ the Rotel gear going 1.3 HDMI anytime soon, but you never know. Maybe we will get lucky...or you will. I can't afford to play this upgrade game as often as I would like to!

 

[jerseydiplomat]

Obviously I missed my HDMI primer somewhere along the way. I was under the impression that the next gen audio was NOT available on anything pre 1.3 HDMI.

Sorry for the confusion and don't hold your breath w/ the Rotel gear going 1.3 HDMI anytime soon, but you never know. Maybe we will get lucky...or you will. I can't afford to play this upgrade game as often as I would like to!

yeah i'm not in any rush and even HDMI 1.1 would do. i'm going to attempt to use an old onkyo analog receiver with a RMB 1095 as a power amp for a pair of vistas but i'm not too sure how well all of that will go