Multi-channel amplifier for Theos

MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum

Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Thanks MrBT. You've explained it well. That's exactly what I'm doing with the NAD. Just to make it clear, the multi-channel settings are not affecting the two channel settings where I run the Theos full range.

I know there have been several issues with the Vista 8 inch driver when playing at higher volumes. I haven't noticed any such power handling restrictions with the Theos. These speakers just seem to absorb any punishment you give them.

So the main reason I'm using the HT receiver cross-over option is not so much to protect the speakers (which can handle a lot more power than I'm offering) but to make life easier for the receiver.

I hope you guys aren't too bored with my tales of experimentation. It's a bit of fun and I've learnt a lot more about my system and the capabilities of the Theos since I started.
 
Last edited:
NAD technical support got back to me today. They have confirmed their suspicions that the Theos, once spls are above the 'norm' and are driving more difficult speakers may be cause the T 757 to shut down. Some receivers do not have a sophisticated protection system and could damage speakers by sending distorted signals down the wire. Apparently NAD designs their electronics for early shut off at any hint of their amplifiers being over driven. That's a really good thing and no harm can come to amplifiers or speakers.

I was further informed that the new high definition audio sound tracks are 192Khz/24bit and offer unheard of dynamics and sound quality and are extremely difficult to reproduce properly. This is where those on this forum who advocate lots and lots of clean distortion free power at all impedances are on the right track. It seems that the non musical signals in explosions and such like contained in the new HD soundtracks may include lots of high (and low) frequency signals NOT present in music. We are all aware that Martin Logan electrostatics drop to less than 2 ohms at around 20 kHz or so. This is not a problem for most amplifiers because there is not a lot of musical information there. But, for reproducing HD blu-ray soundtracks.....

NAD's Solution: Buy another NAD product being the C275BEE and connect via the preamp outputs of the receiver. If that's not enough power, buy two C275BEEs and bridge them! I like NAD's style
 
Last edited:
It seems that the non musical signals in explosions and such like contained in the new HD soundtracks may include lots of high (and low) frequency signals NOT present in music. We are all aware that Martin Logan electrostatics drop to less than 2 ohms at around 20 kHz or so. This is not a problem for most amplifiers because there is not a lot of musical information there. But, for reproducing HD blu-ray soundtracks.....

Exactly! Have fun with the upgrade. :music:
 
Okay. I'm back again after reading those depressing threads about the cost of ML panel replacement...

Following the recommendation of the dealer (who also sells some Martin Logan speakers) I swapped my NAD T757 for a NAD T777. NAD tech support originally recommended adding a seperate power amplifier to the T757 receiver. The dealer, however, had different ideas and suggested the T777 receiver was a better solution. The T777 is near the top of the range and features 80 watts continuous all channels driven, but more importantly - 140 watts continuous into 2 channels and is stable into 4 ohms. The receiver has a massive torroidal transformer and power supply. The build quality is good, but I'm a bit disappointed with the speaker terminals. The online images depict terminals similar to those on my Theos. When I unpacked the receiver, I couldn't believe NAD had fitted such flimsy terminals to a receiver occupying the second from top rung of it's model range. Hmmmmm.

I finished the setup, let the receiver settle in for a while before listening. This receiver has a slightly more sophisticated version of Audyssey than the T757, but my main listening mode was direct 2 channel analogue bypass using my CEC CD player. I reckon the T777 played a little louder and cleaner than the T757 before switching off - but switch off it did!

&*%$#@ and @#$%&*%!!!

Playing light jazz, pop and less demanding music, the T777 was great, and yes, I think it's a better unit than the T757. But when I punched on with Mika's latest album particularly track 6 'Blue Eyes' (which has some great bass lines) the T777 took a nap - twice. I had to turn the power off at the wall and wait for a couple of minutes. While waiting I checked the temperature on top of the unit - just slightly warm. I removed the power plug and inserted it into a totally seperate power socket before trying again. Cue Mika, cue digital spl meter, and go............!

Spl meter started hitting around 104dB peak, averaging around 96 to 97dB. I started to relax then - the T777 goes to sleep again. Grrrrrrrrr!

Insert one Bryston B-60. Switch on. Wait for a minute or so for a warm up. Cue Mika, cue digital spl meter, and go............! 97dB, 98dB average levels. Some peaks straying into 104db, 105dB etc. No switch off! Great Bryston sound.

I later watched a couple of movies. As long as I kept the levels (and my expectations) down a little, the T777 performed okay. I can't fault the sound quality. The NAD absolutely hammers every other av receiver I have heard - including the respectable Denon 4311. The Denon 3312 is not even in the race. I couldn't get a good price on the Anthem MRX-700, and there wasn't one to audition anyway. Maybe the Anthem would be a better buy.

The whole problem with the NAD T777, and most other receivers, is that despite the claims made by manufacturers that their product can drive any HT speaker, the bottom line is they can, but not to very high levels. So we have to accept this downfall when asking them to drive electrostatics.

A better solution is to buy very expensive av pre-power seperates which can run into many $1000s. I just can't afford this expense at the moment. I don't know whether I will return the T777 to the dealer. I might have to bite the bullet and buy the seperate power amp originally recommended by NAD tech support. Naturally, the dealer thought they knew better. If the dealer had followed NAD advice, I would have kept the original receiver with the addition of the power amp. As it stands, I spent another $1000 on changeover and there'll be an additional $1000 for the C275BEE. Still, this combination is WAY cheaper than the av seperates I priced up earlier this year.

Don't take my ramblings as a huge rant. I am merely detailing my experiences setting up multi channel home theatre for small money. There are lots of options out there, and I've only tried a few of them.
 
Last edited:
Edwin:

Emotiva just came out with their latest and most powerful MCH amplifier to date at 400W x into 8 ohms, 600W x 5 into 4 ohms and is 2 ohm stable. It retails for $1999 which is an excellent value indeed and virtually unmatched at this price.
 
dmusoke, thanks. A dedicated multi-channel power amp could be the way to go. I might yet have to sell the NAD for a av preamp (preowned, to keep the price down?) and then purchase a multi-channel amp.

I might also just return to 2 channel HT. There's much less hassle... :meditate:
 
Outlaw has some good multichannel amps. What is wrong with your Bryston for two channels and your receiver for the others. Does your receiver have pre outs?


J
 
There's nothing wrong with the Bryston for 2 channel. I can do that and use the NAD to drive the surrounds only. But as time has passed, I decided that the whole point of the exercise is to implement a viable multichannel experience for as few dollars as possible - preferably with a one box design. It's easy for manufacturers and salesmen to say "just add a power amp". Yes, I can - but only for a lot more money. The better av receivers are advertised as being able to offer an emersive multi channel experience with any speakers. NAD promotes their T777 as being "...more than powerful enough to take on high-end home theatres without breaking a sweat". I just wonder if NAD had Martin Logan in mind when they wrote that...:think:
 
Edwinr, I have just skimmed through the comments, so don't know if anyone else has said this, but you are heading for problems with your hearing if you continue to listen to music and movies at those sound levels. Believe me, tinnitus is no fun; I had it for about two weeks. Mercifully it went away, but it really took me to the edge (imagine someone grinding metal right next to your ears).
 
I am not sure why you go through so much expected disappoinments. When NAD clamis their receivers can drive any speakers, they refer to dynamic speakers - those with nominal 6 ohms and higher. You should know better. The logans are thirsty for high quality current. At high SPLs you are playing back, you should really stay away from receivers of any brand and stick to seperate power amps only. Try the used market for a Bryston 4BST which you could buy for $1,500 that comes with a 20-year transferable warranty. This amp pumps out 250w/ch into 8 ohms and 500 into 4. Your jaws will drop at the control it will exert on the Theos.
 
The high spl levels I am referring to are dynamic sounds like crashes and explosions and such like. I don't listen continuously at those levels. I guess I would normally listen at spl levels in the early 90dBs, with occasional peaks of around 97 to 98 dB. This is as recorded on my digital spl level meter.

NAD told me their receiver is stable into 4 ohms and WILL drive ML electrostatics at HT levels. So I guess I'm digging my heels in a little. The transformer in the T777 is a beast and is absolutely MASSIVE. So I am looking at my cables and insuring they don't have some kind of leakage or split that could affect the ability of the receiver to drive the speakers. I am using banana plugs, so out they go and back to bare wire. It might make a difference.
 
But theos goes down below 1ohm with those Cymbal crashes. Bryston and others can handle that. Perhaps your NAD has issues .


J
 
I agree, jmschur. I played around with the cables, without success. I have now accepted that the very low impedance is the issue. I touched on this issue before in this thread, but ignored it when other possibilities were raised by the NAD tech support and the NAD dealer. Reflecting on the behaviour of the receiver when it shuts down, it doesn't even get warm, so I'm not 'overdriving' it. I have come to the conclusion that the very best way (other than going pre-power separates) is to buy an inexpensive av receiver with pre-outs - then buying a 5 channel power amp as recommended by others in this thread (Emotiva?).

If I don't keep the T777 receiver for an av pre-amp, I may sell it and invest in a nice 2 channel power amp for my Audio research preamp. I am thinking I will put multi-channel on the back burner for a while...
 
Myself I do not see ML speakers as very good HT speakers.They are overkill'and just wasted IMHO.I like ML for 2 channel setup for music only.HT setups need just decent speakers'Dynamic box type easy to drive.I use Monitor Audio silver and they sound great.Plus any middle of the pack HT reciever will power tnose types.Just my opion.
 
Myself I do not see ML speakers as very good HT speakers.They are overkill'and just wasted IMHO.I like ML for 2 channel setup for music only.HT setups need just decent speakers'Dynamic box type easy to drive.I use Monitor Audio silver and they sound great.Plus any middle of the pack HT reciever will power tnose types.Just my opion.

Yo, Bob! Did you know that some people (OK, EVERYONE on this forum but you) actually puts two spaces after the period that ends a sentence, both as a courtesy to others who may be reading their writings and because it is what MOST of us learned in grammar school?

Just a thought for your future offerings -- since I'm sure you don't want to keep pi$$ing off others.
 
I use a superb amp for my three front ( Bryston) and then Outlaw 5 channel for my surrounds. This works well with ML LCR and my NHT surrounds and Celestion rears with my Integra 80.2 preamp for both stereo, SACD, and HT applications.


J
 
Myself I do not see ML speakers as very good HT speakers.They are overkill'and just wasted IMHO.I like ML for 2 channel setup for music only.HT setups need just decent speakers'Dynamic box type easy to drive.I use Monitor Audio silver and they sound great.Plus any middle of the pack HT reciever will power tnose types.Just my opion.

Some of us have to use them both for music audio and video audio. I prefer overkill to underkill....
 
Yes.in addition there are very good SACDs for classical music that are 5.1.

While there may be some different optimal locations for stereo versus 5.1, I think that it is possible to have both done fairly well in the same room. One does have to pay care with the signal path to the LR speakers. The amp for these speakers is important .


J
 
Your speakers don't care if you play music or movies through them. A good speaker is a good speaker, and ML's are great for movies a well!
Personally I would stay away from any receiver for ML's as they put tremendous stress on your amps especially at high levels. I am using all Krell amplification on my 5 ML home theater channels along with 2 JL audio f113 Subs. I am feeding my SL3's 600 w into 4 and 1200 watts into 2 ohms and when watching concert blu rays I can take even this monster 200 lb amp to its' limits! I would not ever dream of running my front speakers with a receiver, regardless of how "huge" it's power transformer looks!
 
I agree that multi-channel amps like those marketed by Classe and Krell and such like are probably the best options. I wish I had the money for those. At least I've sampled multi-channel for the first time and what I've heard is great. I have been particularly impressed by SACD streamed by HDMI. Wow!

I purchased Bryan Ferry's 'Avalon' in SACD last year and it's been sitting on my shelf unplayed. After I hooked the NAD T777 up, playing this SCAD was a revelation. Strange though it may seem, while listening to HD movies has highlighted the lack of drive I've been experiencing with av receivers, it was my SACDs that showed me the potential of multi-channel if done right. If I can just raise my multi-channel listening to the level of my 2 channel, I will never look back.
 
Back
Top