General Questions about Martin Logan Speakers

[captain_tinker]

Hello all,
I am also relatively new to the forum. I've been doing a lot of reading over the past couple months, but haven't posted much. I do not currently own anything by Martin Logan, but I hope to change that at some point. I have a dealer here in town that sells Martin Logans, but up until a few months ago, I never did hear them. Here is the story really quickly, then I have several questions. I am not sure if I should put each of them in a separate thread or just go for it.

Anyway, I went in to audition some subwoofers. The guy there had a hard time getting them to work, partly because someone else had disconnected some things, and he didn't know about it. Anyway, he was going to show me the monster-ish ML Descent I think it was, the really big one anyway. He couldnt' get it going, but there were some speakers attached that started playing (found out later that they were the Summits) and this amazing thing happened. I couldn't figure out where the sound was coming from! It sounded like it was coming from the front right corner of the room, but I looked and there were no speakers there! I thought, what the heck is going on here? So I asked, which of these three speakers here is the sound coming from? I could not tell. He pointed to the Summits, and I walked back a few steps, and there it was again... The sound was all around me! I had never experienced a phenomenon like that before at all! It was one of the neatest things I have ever heard! Though the sound of the cd that was playing was not that impressive, the way it filled the room was amazing! I thought, man I could never afford anything like that, and with a wife that would probably kill me if I ever brought something like that into the house, I figured owell... Nevermind.
But because of this, I started to look at the ML website, and found that they had some cheaper priced speakers, some with the electrostatic, and some with the ATF (Mosaics). So I called them back and found that they had the Mosaics in house. So I figured that based on the price point, I would audition another speaker about the same price with it, and do an A-B. I chose the Paradigm Studio 60. The salesman brought both in, set them up side by side, and plugged them in, and popped in my CD I had put together for the test. For some of the songs, I could barely tell the difference between them, they both sounded awesome! Very clear, very detailed. I thought the Mosaics sounded just a bit bass shy, but in retrospect that may have just been less boomyness too. Of course a good subwoofer would fix that in a hurry anyway. So no problem there. But then I thought as I listened to it more, that the Paradigms sounded like some of the frequencies were being piped through a cardboard tube. I don't know how to really describe the sound other than that. But it became quite obvious once I was able to put my finger on it. I then wanted to hear the Summits again and see if I could hear that same phenomenon again. They had moved things around in the room a bit, and I just didn't hear it again the way I had the first time. I have to admit I was disappointed.
Then after having found this site, I began to understand that maybe they had just moved the Summits out of the place they were in before, or somehow the furniture in the room being moved may have made a difference too. So that could account for that. But it also illustrated just how sensitive to placement these things can be. So that brings me to my other questions. I have heard some very pro things about these speakers, but also some very con things. I am just trying to understand them so I can make a good decision once I am able to save the money to buy them. I would like to spend UNDER $2000, since I don't think I could justify any more than that. My wife already freaked out when I bought my current Paradigm Titan's for $250 a pair. Though, those have proved to be VERY nice speakers. I may end up using them temporarily for rear speakers if I am able to buy some ML floorstanders for the fronts.
I am looking at both the Clarity and the Mosaic. I know that both use a cone woofer, but one uses the actual electrostat panel and the other uses the ATF tweeter and midrange driver. I have not yet had a chance to listen to the Clarity's yet, though I know the dealer has some.
If it helps, I believe I listen to about 80% music and 20% movies/HT. I have some DVD-A's and SACD's. I just don't have surround yet. My receiver is a Marantz SR5600, but I do not yet have an Amp. It can do 90 wpc into 8 ohms, and can go down as far as 6 ohms, at least according to the marking on the back of the unit. It says "Minimum 6 ohms".
I also know that size of room and placement is critical, so here some sample measurements. The living room is about 15 feet wide and 30 feet long. The oak entertainment center is on the wall at the far end with the couch about 8 to 9 feet back from it. The entertainment center is about 8 feet wide from side to side, and from the back wall to the front of the unit is about 1 and a half to 2 feet. The wife will not allow any speakers to be much more than an inch or two forward from the unit. The left side has an opening in the wall going into a hallway, the right side has a window on the right wall, right at the corner. This is about 3 to 4 feet from the edge of the entertainment center. Behind the couch is a partly walled off kitchen. There is a door, and also a large window going into the kitchen from the living room/dining area behind the couch.

1.) what are the main differences between the mosaic and the clarity? Besides the obvious, one using an esl panel and the other using the ATF. I am looking at quality of sound, sound field, ease of positioning etc. Would the area I have to work with allow either of those to work properly?

2.) I have also heard that an electrostat panel can arc with static electricity sometimes, and that it attracts dust like mad and has to be constantly cleaned with a special cloth, and only after being discharged. Is this true, and if so, please shed some light on it with some details. I ask that because I touched the Summits face as they were playing, and nothing happened to me. So if my wife were to use a swiffer on them, would that be a bad thing?

I guess those are my main questions right now, I will post more if I think of any more. Oops, just noticed how much I typed. Sorry for the long post!!!

-capT

 

[twich54]

Hello all,
2.) I have also heard that an electrostat panel can arc with static electricity sometimes, and that it attracts dust like mad and has to be constantly cleaned with a special cloth, and only after being discharged. Is this true, and if so, please shed some light on it with some details. I ask that because I touched the Summits face as they were playing, and nothing happened to me. So if my wife were to use a swiffer on them, would that be a bad thing?

I guess those are my main questions right now, I will post more if I think of any more. Oops, just noticed how much I typed. Sorry for the long post!!!

-capT

Captin, Welcome I don't have any listening time on the Clarity's so I'll let someone else chime in with that. as far as cleaning the Panels it's pretty straight forward, use the brush attachment on your vacuum cleaner and vacuum them once every four to eight weeks depending on your enviroment. I prefer to use a horse hair brush since it does not build up any static electricity.

I trully believe for the little amount of maintence the return in excellent sound is worth it !!

 

[IWalker]

When positioned well, it's amazing the soundstage the speakers can throw. I haven't had much experience with the non-ESL speakers, but have heard the clarity extensively and can recommend it highly, when used with a sub. However, with a room the size of yours, I'd more highly recommend an older pair either Ascent/Quest/Sequel...something along those lines. I have the Quest Zs, and got them for under $2k...they have the largest panel of the ones listed. I think they're fantastic.

 

[IWalker]

The part that needs to be cleaned is actually recessed from the surface you can readily touch...so you'd actually need a brush to get in the holes...a swiffer wouldn't work. I've never seen either the claritys (a friend owns them) or the Quest Zs I have arc. I think it's an issue that has largely been remedied in ML design.

 

[captain_tinker]

Folks,
I did a bit of further looking, and found this:

http://www.1388.com/news/chris_report/12-04-2001/index.html

It mentions that the cause of the arcing tends to be humidity combined with dust particles that can cause it to arc. I have to admit, I am a bit concerned about the high voltage, especially with two very curious young children around the house. That's another reason I have shied away from getting any floor standing speakers or subwoofers yet. I don't want to spend a lot of ca$h and have it ruined by a baby toy or a kid spilling milk all over them... They have already smeared milk all over my TV... Thank goodness it's just a 10 year old RCA tube tv. Its also a good thing there are glass doors in front of the receiver and the DVD player etc. I see all sorts of hand prints all over it constantly.

So other than the cleaning aspect, which doesn't seem as bad as I thought, and the arcing, which again thankfully isn't as bad as what I thought, what about the difference in sound between the Clarity and the Mosaic? Is it quite different? Would placement be more difficult for one than the other? I would assume that the Mosaic probably would not be quite as difficult to place as a true electrostat, mainly because in the store, they sounded great right where they were. Not far from the wall.

The other thing that I am getting out of your comments so far is that maybe either of those speakers may not be quite big enough for my room? If so, then perhaps I should look into something larger, though it may take longer to save up for them. I will have to see what else my dealer has besides the Mosaic, Clarity, and Summit. Those are the only floor standing ones I've seen so far in there. They have the in wall speakers too, and those are incredible! Though I don't feel like putting holes in my walls if I don't plan on staying there permanently. We would eventually like to move into a larger home as the family grows, and the space needs become more urgent. Though this may be another couple of years.

-capT

 

[Charliemike]

Folks,
I did a bit of further looking, and found this:

http://www.1388.com/news/chris_report/12-04-2001/index.html

It mentions that the cause of the arcing tends to be humidity combined with dust particles that can cause it to arc. I have to admit, I am a bit concerned about the high voltage, especially with two very curious young children around the house. That's another reason I have shied away from getting any floor standing speakers or subwoofers yet. I don't want to spend a lot of ca$h and have it ruined by a baby toy or a kid spilling milk all over them... They have already smeared milk all over my TV... Thank goodness it's just a 10 year old RCA tube tv. Its also a good thing there are glass doors in front of the receiver and the DVD player etc. I see all sorts of hand prints all over it constantly.

So other than the cleaning aspect, which doesn't seem as bad as I thought, and the arcing, which again thankfully isn't as bad as what I thought, what about the difference in sound between the Clarity and the Mosaic? Is it quite different? Would placement be more difficult for one than the other? I would assume that the Mosaic probably would not be quite as difficult to place as a true electrostat, mainly because in the store, they sounded great right where they were. Not far from the wall.

The other thing that I am getting out of your comments so far is that maybe either of those speakers may not be quite big enough for my room? If so, then perhaps I should look into something larger, though it may take longer to save up for them. I will have to see what else my dealer has besides the Mosaic, Clarity, and Summit. Those are the only floor standing ones I've seen so far in there. They have the in wall speakers too, and those are incredible! Though I don't feel like putting holes in my walls if I don't plan on staying there permanently. We would eventually like to move into a larger home as the family grows, and the space needs become more urgent. Though this may be another couple of years.

-capT

I would not bother going with ESLs with young children. Things happen and that's an expensive accident.

 

[jmschnur]

Clarity's have good elctrostatic sound but the bass a rather inferior. If you go with them, I would also get a good sub woofer and use it with the high cross over set as high as you can.

Joel

 

[MOON]

Cap R,

I would agree with I Walker about persuing buying an older bigger Martin Logan speaker. Your room is very large and could use a bigger speaker to fill it.I can attest to that going from the Aerius i to the Oddessey's, what a difference !! Incidently , the room size you have divides evenly by 2 which is a bad thing for acoustics, but thats another topic.

Back to speakers, you could buy a pair of SL 3's or request that would definately be within your budget or buy some Ascents which might cost a little bit extra, not much though.

One very, very important tid bit is that Martin Logans do require room off the back wall to the stator to work there best. I would say 36 inches would be the bare minimum to get away with. So your WAF issue might make that not do- able. I have my Oddessey's 54 inches off the wall to the stator, my older Aerius i's were 50 inches off the wall.

Another note, Martin Logans really demand top flight components to be mated with them, or they will show the weaknesses in your components to no avail.Also , a higher wattage rating and the ability to run a 4 ohm load would be a step in the right direction. I know everything cost and Rome wasn't built in a day, so just keep that in mind for the future. One thing buying used, you could get a good set of ML'S that would fill your room.

Your initial observation of being blown away by the Summits is quite valid, thats why I own ML's, whatever model I have heard has been an awesome experience. Hope you can join the ML clan.Maybe you can tell your wife what I say, Martin Logans look like a modern sclupture , how could you not like them?

Cheers

 

[Jeff Zaret]

capT,

Welcome. I think we all understand your issue and have been there in one form or another. I too live in California and in the desert! I have two pairs of ML's, the CLSiiZ's and Sequel II's which are both electrostatic panels and in the case of the Sequel II's a hybrid. I have never had any issue of the panels arcing. I do have issues with static electricity from the carpet but that only affects my equipment when I am not careful. I also have a Fresco which is the ATF technology. It does blend well with the panels.

I think as others have said, the Clarity maybe the way to go for now. I have heard the Clarity's but not the Mosaics. They Clarity's had nice balanced sound but as others have stated a bit bass shy. I believe the Clarity's will give you a bit more defined high end and smoother mids than the Mosaic but both are good speakers.

Just reading between the lines here and I might be wrong, but although the other older versions would probably give your room more sound I am getting the feeling the WAF may be an issue with larger speakers. They also will demand more from your equipment.

What you may want to do is get the Clarity's now and then later on get something like the Summits or Vantages and use the Clarity's as rear speakers in a HT. I would listen to as many different ML's as you can to get an idea.

Just a thought

Are you in S Ca?

Good Luck

Jeff:musicnote:

 

[Charliemike]

Cap R,

One very, very important tid bit is that Martin Logans do require room off the back wall to the stator to work there best. I would say 36 inches would be the bare minimum to get away with. So your WAF issue might make that not do- able. I have my Oddessey's 54 inches off the wall to the stator, my older Aerius i's were 50 inches off the wall.

My room is 12 feet across and if I put it 3 feet from the wall it would be about 6 feet from me on the couch LOL ... World's biggest headphones

 

[MOON]

What a nice set of headphones you have !

 

[Charliemike]

What a nice set of headphones you have !

LOL ... I know ... I'm going to have to figure out how far I can put them out from the wall and not feel like they are completely on top of me.

 

[benleeys]

I find it rather strange that there is so much talk about regularly vacuuming the speakers' surface. In the 16 years or so of owning the Sequel IIs, I've never ever had to perform any vacuuming or dusting on them, and they sounded fantastic till the day I replaced them with the Summits. The only dirt built-up noticed is on the stators, around the little holes. Q-tips took care of this, and only on 2 occasions over the years. Even my dealer was amazed with the sound quality of the 16-year olds.

Ben

 

[Reverb2009]

I find it rather strange that there is so much talk about regularly vacuuming the speakers' surface. In the 16 years or so of owning the Sequel IIs, I've never ever had to perform any vacuuming or dusting on them, and they sounded fantastic till the day I replaced them with the Summits. The only dirt built-up noticed is on the stators, around the little holes. Q-tips took care of this, and only on 2 occasions over the years. Even my dealer was amazed with the sound quality of the 16-year olds.

Ben

Dust build up will vary dispending on were you live. Me, I live in a desert so I can dust my house and an hour later it looks like it was never done. Dust builds up on my Martin Logan’s real fast, I know it’s time to vacuum my speakers when it’s hard to see threw them and that’s about every other month.

 

[socialxray]

ML's do not arc nor are they an electrical hazard.

They do not arc because of the coating on the stators.

Also I have had many curious people walk up and touch my SL3s while music was playing full bore and nothing ever happened (sometimes to my dismay).

 

[Charliemike]

LOL ... I know ... I'm going to have to figure out how far I can put them out from the wall and not feel like they are completely on top of me.

I just checked out Robin's system and I'm pretty sure I've got more room than that so I'm not going to complain.

 

[benleeys]

Dust build up will vary dispending on were you live. Me, I live in a desert so I can dust my house and an hour later it looks like it was never done. Dust builds up on my Martin Logan’s real fast, I know it’s time to vacuum my speakers when it’s hard to see threw them and that’s about every other month.

Hi Joe,

I guess the dust problem is much reduced in conditions of high humidity (less static) like Singapore where it's almost 100% most days. With aircon, it's still around 70-80%.

Ben

 

[captain_tinker]

Cap R,

I would agree with I Walker about persuing buying an older bigger Martin Logan speaker. Your room is very large and could use a bigger speaker to fill it.I can attest to that going from the Aerius i to the Oddessey's, what a difference !! Incidently , the room size you have divides evenly by 2 which is a bad thing for acoustics, but thats another topic.

Back to speakers, you could buy a pair of SL 3's or request that would definately be within your budget or buy some Ascents which might cost a little bit extra, not much though.

One very, very important tid bit is that Martin Logans do require room off the back wall to the stator to work there best. I would say 36 inches would be the bare minimum to get away with. So your WAF issue might make that not do- able. I have my Oddessey's 54 inches off the wall to the stator, my older Aerius i's were 50 inches off the wall.

Another note, Martin Logans really demand top flight components to be mated with them, or they will show the weaknesses in your components to no avail.Also , a higher wattage rating and the ability to run a 4 ohm load would be a step in the right direction. I know everything cost and Rome wasn't built in a day, so just keep that in mind for the future. One thing buying used, you could get a good set of ML'S that would fill your room.

Your initial observation of being blown away by the Summits is quite valid, thats why I own ML's, whatever model I have heard has been an awesome experience. Hope you can join the ML clan.Maybe you can tell your wife what I say, Martin Logans look like a modern sclupture , how could you not like them?

Cheers

Moon,
Thanks for the advice. You are absolutely right that the WAF factor is very high here. It was hard enough to convince her that I wanted to get floor standing speakers to begin with, but that was when I was still looking at boxed cone speakers. Once I heard the summits, I was a changed man. Even more so when I heard the difference between the Mosaics and the Studio 60's. I just don't think I would ever be completely happy with buying a boxed speaker now that I have heard a panel. I do find that they all seem to be just a bit bass shy, but I guess that is normal for most of them, but it isn't a problem if you get a sub.

As for getting a floor stander taller than the mosaic or clarity, well I know for a fact that that would just get shot down by the wife. She has seen the pics on this site of people's systems, and she just said, "I'm glad you aren't wanting to get those, those are way too big." Perhaps what my Fellow Californian Jeff said would be best. Start small and then someday, in a larger home maybe, I can put the smaller clarity's in the rear, and use them for surrounds.

BTW Jeff, no I am not in SoCal, I'm in NorCal. Near Sacramento. Either way, I am really enjoying California a lot. I've lived here for almost 6 years now.

-capT

 

[MOON]

Hi CT,

My wife couldn't beleive the height of my new oddessey's at 69 inches with the spikes on, 2 inches over her head. I told her my new rule was to have a least 1 inch in speaker height for every inch in height of her, and besides she could wear high heels around to make up the 2 inch difference. She thought that was pretty funny. Glad I have no WAF issues.

I am curious if you can approach this another way. Does your wife have a hobby or persuit that you 100% ( be it buying purses or shoes, bingo, whatever ) go along with and not give any input into how it should be done. If so , perhaps that would give you some lee-way here.

As to looking at the pictures on this site, as nice as the pictures are , it's another story when you actually get to see the speakers in front of you , being able to look through the stator. Maybe take your wife to a store where they sell ML's. I know she would feel as if she had a dentist appointment , but possible seeing them in front of her would change your wifes mind.

Cheers, Greg

 

[Charliemike]

Hi CT,

My wife couldn't beleive the height of my new oddessey's at 69 inches with the spikes on, 2 inches over her head. I told her my new rule was to have a least 1 inch in speaker height for every inch in height of her, and besides she could wear high heels around to make up the 2 inch difference. She thought that was pretty funny. Glad I have no WAF issues.

I am curious if you can approach this another way. Does your wife have a hobby or persuit that you 100% ( be it buying purses or shoes, bingo, whatever ) go along with and not give any input into how it should be done. If so , perhaps that would give you some lee-way here.

As to looking at the pictures on this site, as nice as the pictures are , it's another story when you actually get to see the speakers in front of you , being able to look through the stator. Maybe take your wife to a store where they sell ML's. I know she would feel as if she had a dentist appointment , but possible seeing them in front of her would change your wifes mind.

Cheers, Greg

Perhaps if you show her some of the backlighting people have done with them she can see they'd be big but perhaps attractive and not monolithic.