Flutter on vantage speakers

[Tonmeister]

Hello

I have a pair of older ML vantage speakers which I love to bits, however I am aware of a subtle but increasinly irritating fault thats developed with them. Its a form of slight harmonic distortion, is anyone here old enough to remember old fashioned tape flutter its akin to that and really only prevelant on things like solo piano music, my tastes are classical and jazz.

Maybee I should replace the panels but don't want to id its not necessary. Does anyone have any ideas, I have as yet only vacuumed the panels as per instructions.

Thank you

Stephen

 

[Tosh]

Would you describe the problem better? Are you sure it's not the ESL revealing some flaw in the recording?

 

[Tonmeister]

Despite a career in professional audio i struggle to elaborate better! This is a slight annoyance not a major one but...........! Best descibed as minor intermodulation distortion on items such as piano music from frequencies about 4K upwards on hundreds of different sources. Frankly I can live with it but its not my imagination. Its a tall order to respond but you never know, someone might know what I am talking about. Incidently what is the life of the speaker panels? might they need replacing?

Thanks anyway for you trouble

Stephen

 

[Tonmeister]

Sorry but in basic lay-mens language the sound manifests as a jangly quality. Not its not the recording or my ears as it only appears on certain passages of music.

 

[JonFo]

Based on the descriptions, it almost sounds more like you are sensitized to the ringing of the room with certain recordings and levels.

Unless you have a well-damped room, usually not the case in plaster-lathe walled, or concrete walled UK residences, the resonances or ringing of the high-frequency energy can sound as you describe.

Remember, the ESL panel is A) large, B) radiates in BOTH directions, so it's energizing a LOT of room surfaces directly and indirectly, so it is very easy to have ringing build up at given frequencies.

I have a room I custom designed (in terms of ratios and overall size) for my large ESL setup, yet put up with years of excessive ringing due to inadequate damping (and that was with drywall and light treatments). Can't believe I did that now that it's well treated.

So first thing to try:
Damp the rear-wave with some absorption on the wall behind the ESL.

Next:

Damp the wall behind the listener, opposite the ESL. Hanging a thick carpet 2 or 3" from the wall behind it is quite effective and has a good degree of WAF (assuming a nice carpet pattern that fits the decor).

Hope that helps.

 

[Tosh]

Jonathan is on it!
Symmetry: I would also remind you to get those first reflection points the same L to R, along with your listening position. Once the first and second sound paths are correct L to R, it's much easier for the brain to continue concentrating on the stereo info in the recording, rather than decoding asymmetry in the room.

"Jangly" or "wirey" is how I describe the sound of my first CD player!

 

[Tonmeister]

Thank you for this help, I dont get a sense that its anything to do with the room and the frequncy range in question is clearly very narrow but you guys know these speakers better than me. Ive got a Unison research CD player and I must say my first thought was it was its valve pre amp but I got the same result playing hi-def WAV files through a high end media streamer.

Just two quick questions, beyond the recomended vacumming of the panels should I attempt a deeper clean? also do these panels have an effective shelf life? they must be quite old now>

Thanks again
Stephen

 

[JonFo]

If you experience the same effect regardless of source, then it's likely something between them and your ears, so amp or the speakers themselves. But the most likely is the speaker to room interaction, as that is the number one influence on the sound.

Regular vacuuming is always recommended, but a deeper clean is really only required if there is visible build-up on the diaphragms. See some of the cleaning threads for some pics of before and after.

As for shelf-life, it really depends on how they are treated and what vintage the panels are. In my case, I have one set of 1993 vintage panels still running on my Sequell IIb (as my rear speakers) that still sound fine, they have measured HF roll-off, but a bit of EQ fixes that. I expected to need to change them in the last decade, but have not needed to. They lasted this long because I baby them and they have been in a windowless dedicated room for the last 20 years.
The original panels on my 1993 vintage Monolith IIIx's had to be replaced in 2006 because the prior owner ('93 to '98) kept them in a sunlit family room and never vacuumed them. The new panels are as good today (12 years on) as the day I installed them. Again, same anal-compulsive owner and dark room as the Sequels ;-)

My take is ESL panels produced in the last 15 years or more are of very high-quality and that absent highly negative environmental factors, they will last many decades.

 

[Victor]

Dear Stephen,
Have you tried tightening the bolts on the panel mounting brackets? Excessive bass (or even moderate bass at high volume) can loosen them.
I have a suspicion this can affect the efficiency of the panel but if they are loose enough maybe the bass enclosure can interact causing frequency modulation (?)
It’s pretty tenuous as solutions go but worth a look perhaps.

As to lifespan my understanding was “up to” 20000 hrs.... (in reality, could be anything depending on the environment)
Hope this helps.