Piano distortion on ML Vantage

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OKA

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Bergen, Norway
I just got myself a set of Vantage speakers used. They look and sound great except on piano. Lower mid is a bit distorted, sort of a honky-tonk filter on the piano. Glen Gould Goldberg variation (last one) is troublesome. A lot of recordings sound a bit strange on piano but in many cases it is subtle and could be intentionally (but closer examination with Stax earspeakers shows its not).

The distortion on independent of volume and as far as I can tell on both panels.

Any suggestions?

OKA
 
Again, welcome to the group. As for your distortion on the panels with respect to piano that shouldn't be. I feel electrostatics are the best transducers for piano, anyways, one thought that comes to mind is distortion ?? What are you using (amp(s)) to drive your Vantages ?
Did you demo the speakers before you bought them ? if so was the issue not present then ?
 
Have you vacuumed the panels yet? Look closely at the surface of the mylar and see if it's dusty or has any residue on them... front and back. Sometimes some dust or even a little bug can get in there and cause the panels to have a bit of distortion.
 
I have to rewrite: press the wrong reply key...

I did demo the speakers, and I did notice something strange with piano (Jan Garbarek live at Athens) But I thought it was something revealed by the speakers. He had a great setup with Audio Research gear and it sounded great. He had upgraded to ESL 11.

My amp shouldnt be the problem. It is a strong 250w mosfet amp that is known to work well with electrostats.

The room is good. I have spent some time finding a good placement . Gone back to 0dB adjustment (after tried for a while with -4) and have the golden ratio mentioned in the Vantage manual (Ceiling vs frontwall-speaker) 1/3 tiptoed in. None of this influenced the distortion at all.

The distortion is subtle. Many would probably not notice at all, and I have only noticed it on some of the piano register. I wondered if it was crossover problems sub/panel but I think then it would be a known problem for the Vantage, and I understand it is not.
 
TomDac said:
Have you vacuumed the panels yet? Look closely at the surface of the mylar and see if it's dusty or has any residue on them... front and back. Sometimes some dust or even a little bug can get in there and cause the panels to have a bit of distortion.
Click to expand...

I was a bit afraid of vacuuming but read that it shouldnt be a problem. After turning it off for the night I did so. The is a small sticky thing at the very edge 2/3 up on one panel. I have unsuccessfully tried to get rid of it, but I think the distortion is on both sides.

Is there a tip to get rid of the sticky stuff? It cant be vacuumed and I even tried with a needle (yes, a bit scary and I was careful) Can the panels be opened to access the mylar? (that is the word for the plastic coating/panel?)
 
OKA said:
I was a bit afraid of vacuuming but read that it shouldnt be a problem. After turning it off for the night I did so. The is a small sticky thing at the very edge 2/3 up on one panel. I have unsuccessfully tried to get rid of it, but I think the distortion is on both sides.

Is there a tip to get rid of the sticky stuff? It cant be vacuumed and I even tried with a needle (yes, a bit scary and I was careful) Can the panels be opened to access the mylar? (that is the word for the plastic coating/panel?)
Click to expand...

Can you take a pic for us ? I wondering if you might have a bit panel sag / slippage ? sticky thing could be from a spar slippage ?
 
ML panel.jpg
Here is a bad quality (phone) image.
 
something looks wrong with the mylar to me, it appears overly opaque. Granted it could be camera angle or flash but I can't be sure.

Is the issue just with this speaker ? have you tried switching speaker leads ?

What amp are you using ?
 
It is totally transparent in RL. The phone flash is quilty here.
I think it is in both panels.

The amp is good, probably unknown to you, do not think it has been sold internationally. Dynamic Precision 600.
 
Welcome OKA.
If you listen to the panel very close during the passage that has the distortion, can you isolate it to a specific spot.

As Twitch asked do both panels do it? Try switching the amp channels. Try different cables to be sure of the problem.

My next suggestion would be to remove the panels and wash them.

Instructions for washing can be found here in the Forum. Many have had great success renewing panels with this. It is not as scary as it sounds. The biggest thing is to be sure they are completely dry before reinstalling.

Good luck, let us know what happens.
 
Oka,

Brad is right! Washing the panels is a normal procedure with Martin Logan. Specially here, Costa Rica. We have a lot of dust coming from our volcano ashes. You can´t get ridge of the dust, unless you have a pipe water hose at the garden, and wait until the panes are completely dry. Apply the water only at the front of the panels. With the aid of a microfiber cloth, you can speed the drying process.

Perhaps with the aid of a very tiny tweezers you can pinch that white dot. The conductive side of the panel is located only at front.

They look very dirty. Try it, no harm will cause to the panel. Here is the link that shows the process. Keep in mind, that this is a request model, but the a stat panel is a stat panel. Size is different and kind of the holes stator is different too.
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?604-Martin-Logan-Shower-Cleaning-PDF

Happy listening!
 
Last edited:
OKA,

The plastic diaphragm should be totally transparent. Yours look opaque. Do not use any soap or solvent. Just plain water. Wash it without any strong stream. Just let the water wash it. 5 minutes or so I think it is enough time. Just look if the opaque look is gone.

Happy listening!
 
Hello Oka, what you are describing sounds very familiar.
First, try REW and do manual freq sweep. Try to catch actual troublesome freq range and listen from where on panel it's coming from.
I've had Vistas distorting/buzzing especially at piano freq because panels were somewhat lose within side frames. Small shims wedged between railing and the panels cured it.
My Summits developed buzzing at piano freq from my-fault-improper-handling while moving. Manual freq sweep pointed to one problematic panel section that I had to "immobilize" (no, it didn't show any differences between both panels - as listened and as measured after)
 
I think the shower did the trick. I got some improvements just cleaning contacts and secure and tightening the cables. But today the piano was fine! A hissing sound on the left speaker though. I dont think it is any moisture left but I unplugged it and will test again later today. If it is still there I guess I must check the wiring.

But piano distortion is far less (although I just tested for a brief moment on the most troublesome recording- Glen Gould Goldberg variations).

The panel was not opaque at all (the picture above- it is just the phone flash) but it is still a bit clearer now. A little damage was on the low plastic list and one was broken around the bolt.
 
Got rid of the hissing sound. The cables was correctly tightened but it had a bend it didnt like in the other end. I did not want to mess with the other end as it is covered in plastic but moved it gently back and problem solved.

Thank you all again for your help and suggestions!

The Vantage sound nicely now and I enjoy the music!
 
Others have provided helpful tips on isolating actual panel-sourced issues.

But if those prove the panels are good, I have another angle for you to explore, as I encountered this as well setting up my Monoliths.

I grew up in a household with a Steinway grand piano played by a Julliard-grad pianist, so I have a very keen reference for piano acoustical performance in many venues. It's the main reason I bought into MartinLogan's 27 years ago.

Certain individual piano notes or chords readily excite specific resonances on panels if they are not well anchored or have some defect as noted above, but they also energize room modes as well, which are often confused for equipment issues.

The larger the panel, the more energy they put out (again, a dipole emits equal energy to the rear as the front, so that needs to be factored as well) and can cause 'ringing' within the room based on construction and treatment. Give your Norweigan location, odds are you have solid concrete walls, which are very reflective and unyielding at any frequency, thus contributing to maintaining resonances if excited.

Even in a room custom-designed for ESL deployment (I built my home after I bought all my ESLs) with all the magical ratios and space to locate them out from the walls, I discovered huge issues with resonances with bare walls. Solo piano was painful at moderate to loud levels. From about 2Khz on up, resonances would zing like crazy.

I embarked on a decade-long process of discovery with measurement tools and ever-increasing acoustical treatments, most documented on this site. Every addition resulted in reductions of certain resonances, to the current state where they are mostly managed and I can play solo piano at close to realistic levels and enjoy it for hours.
A big part of the challenge is actually managing the rear-wave reflecting and causing comb-filtering, which on the frequencies where it's additive further contributes to resonances. Bottom line, place 4" absorption behind the speakers and on the side walls between the speaker and front of room to mitigate side-wall reflection of the rear-wave.

I often see ESL deployed into pristine modern concrete wall rooms, with tons of glass, refelctive floors, and zero acoustic treatments and my ears start to hurt just looking at the pictures, as I know the acoustic hell that must be.
 
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