Exactly Why Vinyl Isn't The Future of Audiophilia

[Gordon Gray]

Gordon Gray,
I entered this discussion to provide an opinion on the OP's original question....and I think I did so in an analytical, scientific & objective manner.

Since then I've been subjected to attacks - such as yours - categorising me as an "analogue extremist" or "religious fanatic" simply because the facts presented did not suit your way of life or lifestyle choices.
The surveys you mention were conducted after presentations in major cities around the country. If you can furnish me with something similar that has been conducted in the US or EU that provides us with more "balance" then I can assure you I will not be offended or feel threatened by it. (Nor would I be puerile enough to launch personal attacks on you or other digital enthusiasts). Quite the contrary, I will welcome it.
Until then those surveys stand as an indicator of the public's preference whether you would decry them as "silly" or not. (Even twice )

I currently use and enjoy : Vinyl LP, CD, HDCD, SACD, audio cassette, open reel, DVD and BD.
I consider my views of media to be balanced.
What formats do you use and enjoy, pray tell?

Victor,

It is not my intent to attack you or anyone else. If taken that way, my apologies.

Having said that, I find the your current post (above) and your previous post somewhat interesting.

Post No. 25. Moving onto some of our writers specific criticisms of LP's, I would describe his diatribe as naive, even clueless, lacking in experience.

Post No. 60. Nor would I be puerile enough to launch personal attacks on you or other digital enthusiasts.

Post No. 25. Classical recordings on LP seem to have a perfectly natural balance. 2 channel listening is the only way to appreciate music. This is an inescapable fact. Like any good piece of art, the only way to enjoy music is the original 2-channel mix in its non re-mastered form. Anything else is just a novelty. What is generally astonishing about LP playback is that 2nd hand LP's, which may have been "thrashed" for years on someone's cheap rig, often play like "demonstration quality" material. If heard, YOU WOULD WANT TO OWN THEM, at all costs.

Post No. 60. I entered this discussion to provide an opinion on the OP's original question ... and I think I did so in an analytical, scientific, and objective manner. I consider my views of media to be balanced.

You state above, referring to me, that "the facts presented did not suit your way of life and lifestyle".

With all due respect, and maybe I missed something but I see no facts. I do see subjective opinions, which by nature, are not facts but personal preferences or to state another way, the exact opposite.

Here's what I believe. Whatever media allows a person to emotionally connect with the music is the "best" media for that individual.

Regarding your last question, click on "My System" for details.

Happy listening.

Gordon

PS: I do "treat" my CD's to ensure long life and have every confidence in the world they will play just fine after 30 years. My current 30 year old CD's have no reading / data retrieval issues.

 

[shakham]

Fair enough Shak.

I still don't know how one can determine if any given media is more true and replicates what the artist is hearing when the artist is recording the music.

Am I missing something?

GG

I think determining it without 100% debate is impossible as it's subjective. I would think though the key would be to minimize "subjectivity".

Here is where, due to the nature of digital, it has a greater probability of being truer than analog.

Why?
Music is a culmination of sound propagating from system to system, finally ending in your ears. In the digital world, information moves around system to system with 100% accuracy. Data moving across an HDMI connector (vs an analog connector). Data moving from CPU to DSP to memory and all over the planet and beyond.

It would make sense the least amount the data changes from start to finish gives you more accuracy.

Vinyl vs CD is pretty much all about: master tape -> vinyl/CD -> player -> processor.
processor -> amplifier -> speaker is the same for both mediums.

If the master tape is recorded digitally, then going to digital could be lossless. Note I said could because it depends on where it's going.
If the master tape is analog, you will get changes going to CD or vinyl. Going to vinyl would be impossible to be lossless. It's the nature of the game.

CD has a greater probability of being better, and digital, done right, inherently has the ability to be 100% perfect going from: master tape -> processor.

It's all about moving data around, and digital is the best at that.

 

[shakham]

No recording system can give that. None at all.

Live music is such an amazingly different thing, it is instantly recognisable.

Even when it is piped through junky speakers and amplifiers.

When you say live music?
Are you referring to a recording studio?
Or live music that is meant to be live?

 

[Victor]

I was scanning some omnidirectional speaker reviews and was somewhat amused by this. To save the trouble of reading the entire review I hope the reviewers won't mind if I quote one paragraph.

http://www.duevel.com/test/E-BellaLuna-TW.shtml


"In addition to CDs, I also listened several LPs. Despite not a very long term listening and the equipment merely mid-end Nottingham Spacedeck with Grado MM phono cartridge, the result sound was very surprising. I must admit that with such a combination, even with a less-detailed MM cartridge, LPs sounded far better than CDs. Mr. Liang made a fun comment that maybe we should mail to Mr. Duevel asking him if Duevel speakers have a favor to LPs. No matter what, this experience indicated that Bella Luna is very sensitive to the characteristics of the front end equipments."

Looks like we just found another 2 recruits for the "80%"

I should add that much though I admire our Taiwanese friend's unbridled enthusiasm, they failed to realise that good analogue sources will make any loudspeaker sound more attractive - not just Duevel

Kind regards,

 

[edwinr]

Victor,

....

GG

PS: Enjoy your black pizzas. I'll munch on my silver wafers.

LOL!!!!

Very funny, Gordon

 

[edwinr]

I enjoy listening to vinyl on my Rega P3 with a Denon DL-301 cartridge. Some of my vinyl is a little scratchy, but my best albums are completely noise free and offer amazing reproduction of the music.

I have a couple of albums that I have CD copies as well. I have often compared the sound quality between the two. Frankly I can't hear the difference between vinyl or CD when switching blindly. Better ears than mine may be able to tell the difference. In any event, I think it's amazing that a good vinyl album can sound as good to my ears as a CD on my system.

I have to admit, vinyl is way more user intensive to enjoy. CD is plug and play, and my Apple Lossless files are even less hassle...

P.S. To be fair to vinyl, I acknowledge that the total cost of my turntable/cartridge, even with the tweaks I have made, is not even 1/2 of the cost of my CEC belt driven CD transport plus DAC.

 

[Victor]

JUst noticed the following in recent press. This article shows that there is no shortage of naïve/uninformed diatribes on the subject

(I see Mikey Fremer responded to it by characterising the article as "stupid". I say this for the benefit of aspiring Philadelphia Lawyers who are unsure of the meaning of the word "diatribe" or "article" (i.e. last time I looked they didn't mean "he" or "she")
Never say anything on a Forum that you wouldn't say in a court of law


http://blog.nj.com/njv_kathleen_obrien/2013/06/post_43.html


Analogue may not be the acceptable face of "the future" but journalists who "knock it" appear to have even less of one...

 

[twich54]

A misguided female from New Jersey, nothing to surprising about that ! regardless, she does speak to the 'masses' not us audio nuts !

 

[Victor]

Good point Dave
...or she could be from Salem, Mass.....

[url]http://www.empireonline.com/images/features/100greatestcharacters/photos/90.jpg[/url] [IMG]

Just to show that we're not prejudiced against the ladies, notice in the blogs that follow, one lady, who is a record dealer, deserves a round of applause ;)
Kind regards,

 

[Rich]

Actually, I kind of agree with most of what she says. While records may have great fidelity, I long ago gave up on them due to the care and maintenance required. One mistake and your cherished recording is in the trash. Most every album i still own is unlistenable compared to the CD due to the pops and crackle. I'll take the durability and ease of use of CDs any day. And they are big and heavy. I barely have room for my 2000+ CDs. I can't imagine how much room that many records would take up. What is really sad but funny is how bent out of shape people get when someone expresses an opinion that differs from their own.

 

[twich54]

Rich, the problem lies when one gives an opinion as if it were fact as in the case of Miss 'smarty pants' from New Jersey ! Although as I stated, she speaks to the masses…….and that is a 'fact' !

 

[slowGEEZR]

Oh, darn! I just ordered a new turntable, too! If only I'd have read her article prior to ordering.

 

[amey01]

Actually, I kind of agree with most of what she says.

While I don't necessarily agree or disagree, I think we can all take points from what she says. It is a generalistic / mass market viewpoint. The masses consider there more than sound quality to a music distribution medium.

What amazes me though, is that vinyl (as great as it can sound) is not the pinnacle of sound quality and in all reality is just a cruddy, cheap consumer medium.

Better analogue systems exist!

LP's design principles were to be cheap, easy (by 1920s standards) and feasible to distribute music to the masses, not sound quality.

If we audiophiles are after the true pinnacle of sound reproduction then analogue tape is the only answer. Sources such as Tape Project, etc - but trying to shoe-horn a consumerist/mass market medium like vinyl into high fidelity is never going to be utopia.

Chasing vinyl is like acknowledging digital sounds best and then chasing a 16/44 system while ignoring the fact that better digital systems exist.

 

[twich54]

Chasing vinyl is like acknowledging digital sounds best and then chasing a 16/44 system while ignoring the fact that better digital systems exist.

point taken Adam, but in so far as taking a point from what she says ……….. no, she's a 'journalistic clown'. While there a numerous reasons as to vinyl's resurgence, one that is front and center is the 'fact' (like that Rich) that digital when introduced over thirty years ago and touted to be the 'perfect' medium stumbled, bumbled it's way through marketing BS combined with poor mastering, compression issues, etc, etc. Not to mention stupidity within it's own 'camp' ……..SACD, yes it's supports classical but so much of it is so poorly mastered(positioning the listener smack dab in the middle of the orchestra) that it is going in the 'opposite' direction of vinyl.

Look, we've had many a discussion on this forum and others as to digital vs. analog and the 'facts' are simply this………… BOTH formats can excel and both can disappoint !

 

[Rich]

Rich, the problem lies when one gives an opinion as if it were fact as in the case of Miss 'smarty pants' from New Jersey ! Although as I stated, she speaks to the masses…….and that is a 'fact' !

No Dave. The problem is when people make invalid assumptions and then get their panties in a wad based on those assumptions. It doesn't show it in this particular link, but her column is entitled: "NJ Voices: Opinions from New Jersey." So she is quite clearly stating an opinion. I have no problem with those who disagree with it. But to call her names and denigrate her just because you disagree with her opinion? That seems a little over the top. Unfortunately, the anonymity of the Internet seems to give people free range to be total jerks.

 

[twich54]

Understood Rich, but……'IMO' she is trying to parley an opinion into fact, regardless…I don't know her but I know I don't like her !

 

[risabet]

Recently I was w/o a TT for about a month and a half so I listened strictly to hi-res and upsampled cds loaded into a Toshiba laptop and an Audioquest Dragonfly. Though still an analog fanatic, digital, especially hi-res downloads of true hi-res recordings, check out the Norwegian label 2L for example, has, when at its best, come incredibly close to the best vinyl recordings, neither of which come close to the best R to R recordings IMO. I have no doubt that a better DAC than the AQ would make the difference smaller still. As for CDs they just aren't as good as good vinyl. Actually it's not as good as average vinyl, again IMO.

As to the vinyl wear issue, not an issue at all IMO, albums pressed fifty years ago still sound well, perfect. Digital wins the portability contest but so what.

 

[Rich]

Recently I was w/o a TT for about a month and a half

And apparently you were without internet access for about three and a half years! Nice to see you back on the forum, risabet.

 

[jmschnur]

Wear over time is a real issue as is the variability of response as the needle gets closer to the center. Thus 45s sound a bit better than 33s etc.

One can not stop the wear of a polymer surface with normal needles. However reading the disk optically does not wear the disk and could be a way to future disk players .

 

[amey01]

and could be a way to future disk players .

Already are

http://www.elpj.com/

Problem with this is they read dust without pushing it out of the way like a stylus - and you can imagine how that sounds!