dealer rant..

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I've bought most of my gear new at a B&M but below MSRP. I have this gut wrenching feeling in the pit of my stomach every time I buy something used. Bought my pre amp used and it caused me nothing but grief until the seller made it right.

The ability to call a B&M guy and say "Hey, something is not right here" and getting it fixed now is a big reason I try to buy at a B&M. I see the deals out there on used gear and it is tempting and allows people to obtain great stuff for even greater prices.

I just can't get over that "unknown" of buying used.

Gordon
 
well, someone has to buy it new and be willing to get rid of it, so there can be a used market....

there are still plenty of people that don't want someone else's used gear. I know plenty of finicky types who want to buy new gear that no one else has had and I completely understand it.

so there's always a balance somewhere.

while I really enjoy the vibe of the RMAF, it's not a terribly profitable place for mfrs. to go and I appreciate the fact that so many of them contribute to the event. with about 3000 attendees last year, at least a third, if not half were industry or industry related people. half of the remaining half are DIY'ers or people that want to buy used anyway and make no bones about announcing that to anyone in earshot, so at best maybe there were 5-600 people there that were actually interested in buying gear.

We did a recent poll on Audio Circle asking how many people were going to RMAF to help with a purchase decision and only 10% responded positively. A recent poll on Steve Hoffmans forum about "how many times do you go to an audio store" had an average response of "once a year".

So, at that point, while some of you are waiting for the good used deals, I think it's not sending a terribly good message to the mfr's as to why they should take 10-50k out of their pockets to go to RMAF.


I guess I always thought these shows were about marketing and advertising more than anything else... Never figured people went there and were going to load up on stuff... I look at it like it is the 'auto show' or the 'boat show' or the 'home show'... Most people don't go there to buy - but hopefully, when they are ready to buy - this show somehow left an impression on them - and then the mfr. will get a sale.... The more product people purchase from them - the more likely it will spawn other sales for them... An Example - I bought demo Odysseys from a store...How did I get there? My brother bought new Ascents and I heard them.... Or- writers such as yourself or Jonathon Valin will write about...'The best sound at the show'... and talk about the CLX. The show spawned that free advertising from the writer. So, I think to not go to a show because they don't get the sales from the SHOW - might be a bit short-sighted. Thats my 2 cents anyway.
 
A recent poll on Steve Hoffmans forum about "how many times do you go to an audio store" had an average response of "once a year".

And I'll counter that with those of us with a good store close buy and good realtionship with it's personel frequent much more often........myself with respect to Overture, I'm in there 10-15 times per year and my receipts prove it !!!
 
The store in Tampa that carries most of what I would possibly buy is not user friendly. The only time I tried to do business with them and I was prepared to leave there with a CDP. They told my they would not hook it up unless they were guaranteed I would buy it. I promptly left.

I have purchased most of my equipment used. I am careful about what I buy. Most of it is from the original owner that is upgrading. Because I am willing to purchase someones used equipment they can in turn pruchase new from a dealer. It's kind of like moving along the food chain.
 
Crazy

This is the only business where the customers have some kind of obligation to buy overpriced merchandise. Even the magazines cost too much.
gregadd:cool:
 
the more people that buy used the higher it drives the used price up and keeps the dealers happy. like said earlier someone had to buy it new at first. I am sure glad I did not pay MSRP for my lexicon I would never have gotten over that although I suppose I could have returned it if bought from a dealer. I must say that nothing beets being the first one to lay your hands on a new piece! but you have to pay for that. for some things its worth it and for others its not
 
Interesting discussion about dealers, manufacturer sales & market, and the buying habits of the customer. A few thoughts of my own.

I am in the final stages of having a home built. Complete with a lot of wiring, gear, and speakers. I did a lot of very painful shopping.

It was painful because there are few stores with decent gear. The gear is often displayed poorly with, with little opportunity to do A/B testing-listening. The sales staffs know little.

Message boards are filled with advocates of their own gear. Cheerleaders.

I am ordering a batch of ML in walls (Voyage / Passage / Helos 100's) because you HAVE to have these installed by someone who knows what they are doing, I loved what I heard in the product, and was fortunate to find a good dealer to work with. It all came together as a package.

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If I were a manufacturer, I'd be looking for a way to get my product HEARD by customers ready to BUY. Autos have regional auto shows, where you can wander from car to car, take a peek at many to narrow down your list, then go test drive with an often poor dealer / salesman. But you go home from the show with a short list, do your own research on the specs, and then go test drive. You buy in spite of the salesman, not because of him. I understand manfacturers can't bust a budget, but there has to be a way to do more shows, smaller shows, in more places. Not some big event where new products are announced to the press. Events that showcase product to buyers. Big difference. Bypass the dealer in the sales process, or put differently, develop some pull into the dealer. Maybe these need to be staffed / supported by the local dealers, with just a factory rep showing up to answer the tough question.

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If I were a dealer, I'd be looking for more ways to get my products heard. I had a hard time even FINDING a decent list of decent retailers of gear within 100 miles of where I lived. I literally had a hard time figuring out who to go see, just to see what products they carry.

If I were a dealer, I'd put some focus on the inwall market. None do. Now that is one market where a part of the puzzle is installation, and for that you need service. You don't have the internet price competition eating you up. You have installation margin.

Crestron has figured that out, and so have their dealers. That stuff costs a huge price, and far more than it is worth in my opinion. But they seem to sell plenty of it. It is a total solution, dependent on the installation process. Follow on service calls.

_______________________________

The bottom line is, I spent many months wandering around trying to find someone with product. When I found them I had to exercise a lot of patience with them. I drove a lot of long distances on wild goose chases. I've never had so much trouble carrying around a checkbook I couldn't use. I was ready to buy, but with no one to buy from. This is silly.

Big ticket item manufacturers as a rule figured out a long time ago that their customer isn't you and me, it's their dealer. But they can't sell to their customer, if their customer can't / won't buy from the local dealer. Keeping dealers healthy is the entire game. Manufacturer advertising pulls in clients to the dealer. Shows pull in customers to the dealers. When you are talking autos, helping a dealer is 100% helping the manufacturer. The problem with audio gear, is if ML does a promo to pull in clients to the dealer, the client is also going hear a pitch on B&W, Maggies, or whatever else the dealer sells.

Bose has not flourished because it has great gear. It has flourished because it has great marketing. And big marketing budget.

Manufacturers need to find more ways to get their product heard. Reliance on the local dealers to make that happen is obviously failing. Some sort of bypass of the dealers is going to be necessary, even if in cooperation with the local dealer.

The system is broken. Everyone can stand there and watch it fail, or try something new.

My two cents.
 
New2ML,
It is simple. the more folks talk about "why should I pay this for this and that, and I am not talking full retail. And the more folks that are proud to say how cheap they got their gear, the less places you will have to hear gear.
Manufacturers might as well pull the dealer network and go mail order. Then we all can get out stuff at used prices.

Dealers want their products heard, some are just a little frustrated about customers wanting to purchase gear at their cost practically, or flat- out just using the dealer to hear a product and then buying used.

There are real cost associated with having pieces on the floor for audition, they have to be purchased by the dealer they are not free. I see folks complaining about X dealer not having the product they wanted to hear. I see some have a real lack of understanding of what a dealer has to do in the high-end game.
Remember guys this is supposed to be THE HIGH END.:)
 
I hear you.

Maybe on Long Island there are a lot of dealer choices. Not so elsewhere.

You are never going to change the desire for people to want stuff as cheap as they can manage it. It's business, not charity. And the net is here to stay, and asking people to ignore it out of charity to a dealer they don't know isn't going to be a winning argument.

I don't claim to be the smartest guy around. But if you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you always got. If you don't like what you've got, something has to change.
 
"Dealers want their products heard, some are just a little frustrated about customers wanting to purchase gear at their cost practically, or flat- out just using the dealer to hear a product and then buying used."

This is not going to change. Dealers know this, but continue to scare away prospective, (non 'phile) customers with their snobby attitudes.
 
I hear you.

Maybe on Long Island there are a lot of dealer choices. Not so elsewhere.

You are never going to change the desire for people to want stuff as cheap as they can manage it. It's business, not charity. And the net is here to stay, and asking people to ignore it out of charity to a dealer they don't know isn't going to be a winning argument.

I don't claim to be the smartest guy around. But if you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you always got. If you don't like what you've got, something has to change.

Oh no. It's the same deal here, and yes the NET is here to stay. All I'm saying is folks should not complain about the lack of dealers with lost of gear for them to audition, when their largest support is to the used market.
You should hear the s peaches I get from reps about online selling, or selling out of your area. I feel for the big guys with the large stores being forced to sell at near cost, eventually the stores will go.. but that's life I guess.
 
"Dealers want their products heard, some are just a little frustrated about customers wanting to purchase gear at their cost practically, or flat- out just using the dealer to hear a product and then buying used."

This is not going to change. Dealers know this, but continue to scare away prospective, (non 'phile) customers with their snobby attitudes.

Oh it will, there will be no places to audition gear.
Yes some do have snobby attitudes. One of the reasons for me doing my thing was to spare folks the attitude that deal with me. But I tell you if not for the non-phile many more stores would be gone.
 
Non-philes become philes one upgrade at a time.

The market for $10k speakers will always be thin. The country can't support many of them. They can only survive in locations where there is a pool of buyers at that level. Potential buyers in other spots will just have to travel.
 
I hadn't thought much about it, but the fact is that I have bought far more gear new from dealers (including my pre and amp, my two most expensive components, as well as a long list of other bits and pieces, such as my CDP, headphones, headphone amp, cables, interconnects, etc., etc.) than used. That's one of the reasons that I am fed up with our infamous local ML dealer. If I were in his/their shoes, I would bend over backwards to try to establish relationships with new customers. Instead, they seem to relish mistreating anyone who isn't immediately ready to buy. Oh, well. As I said above, I have given up on them. I would rather drive two or three hundred miles than deal with this dealer again.
 
"But I tell you if not for the non-phile many more stores would be gone. "

Post of the year!
 
Non-philes become philes one upgrade at a time.

The market for $10k speakers will always be thin. The country can't support many of them. They can only survive in locations where there is a pool of buyers at that level. Potential buyers in other spots will just have to travel.

Not many non-philes. They don't sweat the details so they buy and keep.

The used issue doesn't only apply to 10k gear.you have folks not willing to buy a $900 CD player they want new. They want that player for $400
 
The bottom line is, I spent many months wandering around trying to find someone with product. When I found them I had to exercise a lot of patience with them. I drove a lot of long distances on wild goose chases. I've never had so much trouble carrying around a checkbook I couldn't use. I was ready to buy, but with no one to buy from. This is silly.
.

It a shame you didn't PM me, for I don't know how far a drive you are from Wilmington, De but I could have easily set you up with good contacts both at Overture and Hi Fi House.

There is no need for alot of frustration, IMO.....simply look around this forum, check out ones location below their avatars / forum names that are in close proxemity to you. Then contact them and go from there for bonfide dealers that meet your criteria.

I can say WITHOUT RESERVATION that if you can't find something satisfiying at either Overture or Hi Fi House you would be so labled as IMPOSSIBLE !!!
 
But if you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you always got. If you don't like what you've got, something has to change.
Post of the Decade....

Since I see you are in MD, PM me if you want to discuss dealers and issues you have had around the MD area (big hint there FishMan for location) and listening to floor standing ML with movies and music. I believe MiTT said it well in another thread to you, build a nice music system and movies (sonically) will benefit from it.
 
Here has been, I guess, my metamorphosis over the years....

1) I would never buy used.
2) I always needed to hear a demo prior to purchase
3) If I was going to purchase - it would be from my local reputable dealer in
case something went wrong.
4) I always wanted to hear multiple dealers talk about the product and compare them to something that I knew... to verify what my thoughts were.

Today:

1) I will purchase just about anything used.
2) I will buy without a demo
3) I'll buy from the internet either on the 'Gon,ebay, or from a dealer that does buisness online.
4) I will learn and get verification on a product from those online reviews.

Why did I change? Easy - lack of distribution and my increased ability to sell if I needed to. Everything is just a mouse click away. It has become too difficult to get a demo.

If I stumble across a product that I want to hear - to me, that becomes a bonus - not the norm.

I rely a lot on websites like this one, online reviewers etc...

Right now, I'm thinking about the Ps Audio DACIII for purchase. Why? - Becuase of this sight. Can I demo it? No. Can I even touch it or see it in person? No. Have I read all of ther reviews online? Yes. Am I willing to take a risk on purchase from Audio Advisor with a 30 day money back guarantee? Yes.

Where is my local dealer in all of this? Is there a reason they should get paid? Have they done any of the legwork - or helped in my purchasing decision?

Sorry - I started this thread because after going into my local shop I got hacked off at how lame everything was. And the more I read from others - I just get more hacked off... It is not like we all just WANT to go to the internet - It is just their incompetence has sent us there.
 
It a shame you didn't PM me, for I don't know how far a drive you are from Wilmington, De but I could have easily set you up with good contacts both at Overture and Hi Fi House.

There is no need for alot of frustration, IMO.....simply look around this forum, check out ones location below their avatars / forum names that are in close proxemity to you. Then contact them and go from there for bonfide dealers that meet your criteria.

I can say WITHOUT RESERVATION that if you can't find something satisfiying at either Overture or Hi Fi House you would be so labled as IMPOSSIBLE !!!



Funny you should say that.

I did write the big check in Wilmington.
 
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