Chicago Shooutout: ML Summits vs Sanders 10b

[Burke]

The Long Story, Part 1

First my apologies, time is tight so I will have to write this in multiple entries and most likely multiple edits over the next day, so check back and re-read these posts as they will most likely change a bit.

I think it's very important when one is going to post on an online forum their results to make absolute sure that they did everything possible to give a fair comparison.

Jason, you are correct, not everything was perfect, but unlike yourself I do have time and resource limits, although I think I did a fair amount to to insure not skew the results one way or another or prove a predetermined outcome, which is often the case.

The test setup:
When I first started this back in Nov, I thought that I would set the Summits and 10b's next to each other and use Wayne's switch box to go back and forth. Well due to the reduced size of the room and the cabling of the 10b's active crossover box that was just not possible. So the shootout was not held as apples to apples as I would have liked.

The front ends:
two different front ends were used.
1. Sonos music server or Oppo 981 transport to Integra 9.8 DAC/pre processor with all eq turned off. (too hard to set it for each speaker)
2. Ayre CX-5 to CJ Act2 tube preamp. (Transparent power and interconnects)

The ML Summits were feed by Sanders ESL Mono block Amplifiers,
The Sanders 10b were feed by the Sanders active crossover bass amplifier and the Sanders ESL (2ch) Amplifier for the ESL panels. (This difference was done for cabling considerations).

Blue Jeans cables were used throughout.

Time to catch train.

 

[TrumpetDoug]

Rich and his system

Is that the Rich with the incognito system?

You can see His system by clicking at the bottom of his post. I believe it says "my stuff"

And it looks fab.

Doug - out

 

[Burke]

The Long Story, part 2

The speakers had to be physically swapped in and out and took about 20 minutes to convert from one to another. We started with the Sanders 10b as I had it set up from Friday night.

The Sanders 10b's come with a active crossover and bass amplifier. It has three controls Bass (0-12), Mid bass (0-100), Level (0-100). This can also function as a single source preamp. And the level control is normally set for unity gain. I set it to the manual's recommendation of 90. The manual recommends starting the bass at 4 and the mid bass at 90, and I indeed started there. The new room has a bad room mode about 40Hz (+8db). And I adjusted the bass and midbass controls using an SPL meter and the Stereophile Test CD (200hz - 20hz). Rich (SCompRacer) was very disappointed because his Eros Mk III's have great bass response. We played around a little on Sunday but the bass integration never really came on line properly. Obviously we never got them set up as well as they can be.

Burke's thoughts on the Sanders 10b:
First off even with the bass set less than optimum I really like these. The soundstage is much deeper (front to back) than the ML Summits, and the instruments separate and locked in space much better than any other speaker I have ever heard. For classical music these do it like no others. Imaging is very clear and large. The upper frequencies are clean and clear as a bell. I also find them less fatiguing to listen to. I have listened to these for hours at night and I get lost in the music. With the Summits I do not get as lost and end up listening to the quality of tones more than the music itself (Yes, that is a strangely subjective observation, but it did find it as true).

more later

 

[jtwrace]

Jason, you are correct, not everything was perfect, but unlike yourself I do have time and resource limits, although I think I did a fair amount to to insure not skew the results one way or another or prove a predetermined outcome, which is often the case.

Burke

I actually do have constraints...but please be clear that I'm NOT bashing you or anything that you have done. I think it's great that you have an open mind that you are willing to accept another speaker in your home to try that could be for you. I'm just trying to help you...I really am.


After reading the PM to me. Thanks bud! That's really nice to speak like that to a club member. Great job!!!

The PM sent to me:
It is amazing the conclusions one will come to from reading a short three sentence review. About how the tests were conducted and all the set up involved. I now have about 20 hours and over $1,000 in new test gear invested in this test. I do take it seriously, if you did as much you would have either made the trip to Chicago, and/or volunteered to do this yourself. (I volunteered after two others offered and then when Roger said ok, they backed out.) The dates were set over a month ago and shipping and speaker problems kept them from working till Friday night. That's about 30 hours from demo time. Roger's crossover is no easy set up either, and no real directions save for start here and tweak till you like it. I used an SPL meter and Sterophile CD test tones to set them up. Best I had as my microphone and preamp are still on back order and the ones than JonFo promised to send 4 weeks have never been sent, either.

Next time put up or shut up.

--burke

 

[Burke]

The Long Story, Part 3

Next we changed swapped out the Sanders speakers for the ML Summits. After a few minutes of cabling and positioning we fired them up.

The image is no where as deep as the Sanders but wider. The bass is much better integrated. I reduced the 50Hz control by -4 db and the 25Hz by -2db.

Wayne commented that he liked the panel on the Sanders better and the bass on the Summits.

David commented that there was a rumbling in the low bass that was not present last time he was over (the Summits have been put on maple slabs since then and he suspects that this is not working as well as expected) I did notice it as well but seemed to have solved that problem since.

After everyone left, I got real particular about placement and again measured the position of the listening chair, and used my tripod to hold the laser tape. I then moved the Summits to symetrical in the room both with respect to the back and side walls and the chair. we are good to <0.25" sides and back and 0.1" to the chair. I also again used the SPL meter and test tones to refine the 50Hz and 25Hz controls. The Summits really came into their own and I am now in audio nirvana.

 

[Burke]

The Long Story, conclusions

The tests were not run as perfectly as I had hoped for in the beginning and this has probably skewed the results. You can not do swap and proper set up in the few hours you have for a shootout. By changing setup I am sure either could have won.

Proper set-up is everything. You need to position the speakers well within and inch a quarter inch is better.

The Summits have a classic ML sound and excellent bass / panel integration.

The Sanders have a real transparent sound, they just get out of the way and let you enjoy the music. The bass was clearly mis-adjusted by me and accounted for a poorer performance than they are capable of.


Both speakers are world class, you can not go wrong with either.

 

[Cherian]

I agree with Burke both are amazing speakers. Both the ML and Sanders have a lot going for them. It just goes to show that no speaker is perfect. Both had strengths and weakness. I could easily live with either.
Hell, nothing in my system has ever stayed stagnant. I’m always trying different equipment to change the sound to my taste. One thing I have learned about audio is that “sound” is a personal thing and can also be emotional. I have my tastes, Wayne his and burke his. How boring life would be if we all liked one type of sound. Burke you have a great setup!! In some ways I envy it.

I look forward to the next get together. Not so much for the music or the audio equipment, but to spend time with my friends. If I have to use audio as an excuses, so be it.

 

[David Matz]

I agree with Burke both are amazing speakers. Both the ML and Sanders have a lot going for them. It just goes to show that no speaker is perfect. Both had strengths and weakness. I could easily live with either.
Hell, nothing in my system has ever stayed stagnant. I’m always trying different equipment to change the sound to my taste. One thing I have learned about audio is that “sound” is a personal thing and can also be emotional. I have my tastes, Wayne his and burke his. How boring life would be if we all liked one type of sound. Burke you have a great setup!! In some ways I envy it.

I look forward to the next get together. Not so much for the music or the audio equipment, but to spend time with my friends. If I have to use audio as an excuses, so be it.

Good points. Despite the setup issues, all of us got a pretty good taste of the sonic signatures of each speaker. The quotes I posted from the Greenhill review of the Eros speaker are right on. The Sanders sounds a bit more transparent; the Summit a bit warmer.

Another factor is that we all are used to the sound of the speaker we listen to all the time. Someone shopping for an electostatic speaker should hear both of these.

I was blown away by the drum solo on the Castillian Drums from Brubeck's Carnegie Hall concert on the Sanders, losing track of time. We had a lot of fun that afternoon, and that is what it is really about.

 

[SCompRacer]

Thanks for the kind words Doug. I have some experience, but I don’t consider myself a vinyl guru.

I belong to a small, local group at another forum. We have occasional get togethers and try different speakers/gear. Like it has been mentioned, the fun is experiencing different music, gear, getting different points of view, spending time with old friends, maybe meeting a new one. That is how I hit upon the sound I like, and will remain with it until I hear something else I prefer.

Burke gets the hardcore award for that room. It is a really extreme effort. Burke said I sounded like his wife when I mentioned “I don’t know why you can’t be happy with this [ML setup]” but I am still in a rational thinking mode. There was a time of constant gear flowing through my hands. I mentioned that I lost my best friend and audio bud last year. In the year prior to losing him, I lost my brother, sister, mother and 14 year old dog. I became extremely introverted and depressed after losing my bud Norm. I lost interest in near everything, including keeping fit. This get together, along with my other group, helps to get my audio interest going again. Thanks for having me over, I really enjoyed it.

 

[amey01]

Is that the Rich with the incognito system?

Naah Bernard - I don't think we'll ever see his system. Sometimes I don't even think it exists . This is "SCompRacer" 's system......

 

[theWB]

1st chance to post, life's been busy.

Burke Thank You for all your hard work in setting this up and hosting this event.
Big Thank You to Rodger for having the courage to put his company's speakers out there to a group of ML die hards to compare and be scrutinized by a very biased group.

Good food, Good wine, Good Music, and Good Friends.
Great Afternoon.

Dave once again shows up with some World Class electronics.
Cherian pulls a surprise with his musical selection, I am Iron Man.:music:
Two New Comers to the Chicago Gatherings Rich and Doug, Both Black Pizza Lovers.
Burke most excellent and gracious host.

Didn't get any leads on new music this gathering, but will be placing my order soon for a Vinturi Wine Aerator. And yes I believe there will be a Sanders Amp in my future.

My Thoughts and let me preface this by saying these are just my opinions, nothing scientific about it. I know what I like and it may be very different from what others like.

I'm very familiar with the sound of the Summits having owned a pair for the last 7 months. Burke's room is set up for near field listening and I must admit it sounded good, but it's not for me.

For build quality the Summits win hands down over the 10bs. I did not like the veener, the plastic panels, nor the velcro that holds the trim pieces on. To me I would expect more for $13,000. I also prefer the overall looks of the Summits.

But we don't buy speakers for they way they look, but how they sound.

To me the high soundstage of the 10bs was annoying in Burkes near field listening room, In a larger room I'm sure it wouldn't matter. The vocals were crisper and more precise to me with the 10bs, but the sweet spot was extremely narrow. The Summits to me had a wider sweet spot and much wider soundstage, and the speakers seemed to disappear more.

The woofer, panel integration hands down goes to the Summits, but we did not fiddle with the active crossover hardly at all on the 10b's. I suspect had we fiddled with it we could have gotten it to sound much better, To Rich's point the remote would have helped,( am anxious to hear Rich's set up someday).

Bottom line I would not spend $13,000 on these speakers, but I wouldn't spend the $11,000 on the Summits either, I picked mine up after they were discontinued.

After listening in Burke's room I'm convinced I need to get rid of my projection tv and go with a projector, or flat panel, to realize my speakers full potential when 2 channel listening. I'm also curious what my room might sound like if I treated the whole front wall. I did not care for the bass response in Burke's room, and I'm not sure if it had to do with the size of the room, or the fact that every wall was treated. The imaging and soundstage was the best I've heard, you could pick out every instrument and detail and they seemed to be just right there in front of you suspended between the speakers.

Great Afternoon
Thanks to Burke and Rodger once again.

Can't wait till the next get together, maybe another Patricia Barber Night or if Doug gives us a heads up on his upcoming gigs, we can check out his playing.

 

[TrumpetDoug]

Didn't get any leads on new music this gathering, but will be placing my order soon for a Venturi Wine Aerator.

Purchased this already and my wife loves it. Made her think the day was worth it. And that made the $38.00 or whatever it was, worth it to me.

Doug - out

 

[Cherian]

I think we have a winner: Venturi Wine Aerator!!! I got one too. This thing rocks.

Purchased this already and my wife loves it. Made her think the day was worth it. And that made the $38.00 or whatever it was, worth it to me.

Doug - out

 

[theWB]

I think we have a winner: Venturi Wine Aerator!!! I got one too. This thing rocks.

Burke,
You should ask for some commission from Vinturi.
That's 3 sold from our get together.

Wine drinkers, this thing is awesome, it really works.
Burke popped open a bottle of wine, we tasted it right out of the bottle, and then tasted it after he poured it through the aerator. Unbelievable, no more waiting for a bottle to breathe, and no fiddling with one of those aerating decantors. And the sound it makes going through is pretty cool.
http://www.vinturi.com/

 

[TomDac]

Burke,
You should ask for some commission from Vinturi.
That's 3 sold from our get together.

Wine drinkers, this thing is awesome, it really works.
Burke popped open a bottle of wine, we tasted it right out of the bottle, and then tasted it after he poured it through the aerator. Unbelievable, no more waiting for a bottle to breathe, and no fiddling with one of those aerating decantors. And the sound it makes going through is pretty cool.
http://www.vinturi.com/

Hmm.. I never thought pour my wine thru an aerator and into a decanter was an issue.. in fact, it's kind of a cool ritual... so you have to hold this thingie up above the wine glass and then pour thru it into the glass?

 

[amey01]

Yeah - I like the ritual too. And I like the gradual improvement if I'm too keen!

For those of us that don't play vinyl (or play vinyl very often) we need a ritual too!!

 

[Cherian]

Works like this.

 

[User211]

I'm sold on it...

Wonder what it does for port?

 

[Burke]

I'm sold on it...

Wonder what it does for port?

You will have to report back on that one.

 

[SCompRacer]

Burke and David, it was great hooking up with you again! I got home last night ~9:30 and was going to upload the pictures. The wife asks me "Don't you have to work days tomorrow?" Oh yeah, 3AM wake up call.

Here is a link to Photobucket with the images from the Chicago Audio Society meeting on Sunday.

http://s417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Chicago Audio Society/?start=all

Here is a link to the slideshow.

http://s417.photobucket.com/albums/pp260/scompracer/Chicago Audio Society/?albumview=slideshow

EDIT: Pictures all in order now.