Buying American made goods

[User211]

She's all yours, Joe!:ROFL:

 

[Gordon Gray]

Steve,

Excuse my ignorance but could you cite specific examples on how freedom in the USA is being adversly affected by the government?

Gordon

 

[FISH_MAN]

I really do not wish to state specifics as it may infer my personal feelings on certain subject matter that I like to keep that stuff mostly to myself or at least of of a HIFI forum if I could. I really do not want to start a big fight about all of the specifics. If you cannot see how our freedom has eroded then you are lost.

here is just one example of how stupid and overbearing the government has gotten.

In IL it is now illegal for me to even smoke a cigar in my own store after hours when there are no customers present WTF. I used this as just one stupid example of how out of control our society and government has gotten.

there are much larger freedoms though that have been destroyed. the government has pushed its heads into every aspect of our lives as well as trying to control the family unit.

it seems as though any person or group can get together and if they cry hard enough a new stupid law will pass that "protects" everybody and this is now called DEMOCRACY !

 

[Rich]

it seems as though any person or group can get together and if they cry hard enough a new stupid law will pass that "protects" everybody and this is now called DEMOCRACY !

Oh my gosh! You mean citizens are actually banding together and lobbying their government to pass laws that they feel are of benefit, and government is actually responding to the people and passing these laws? Horrors! That's not democracy. It's . . . it's . . . well I don't know what it is, but it can't possibly be democracy.

Seriously, though. The more our population grows and the more crowded we get, the more need there is for regulation since people can't seem to regulate themselves. Personally, I am thrilled that I don't have to reek of cigarette smoke anymore every time I go to a restaurant. So I see some of the tobacco laws as having benefits. If I want a good cigar, I have no problem going outside to smoke it and try to do so in a location that won't bother other people. Of course, it's hard to buy American and still get a good cigar. (Bet you didn't think I could bring this back around to the original topic. )

 

[FISH_MAN]

Oh my gosh! You mean citizens are actually banding together and lobbying their government to pass laws that they feel are of benefit, and government is actually responding to the people and passing these laws? Horrors! That's not democracy. It's . . . it's . . . well I don't know what it is, but it can't possibly be democracy.

Seriously, though. The more our population grows and the more crowded we get, the more need there is for regulation since people can't seem to regulate themselves. Personally, I am thrilled that I don't have to reek of cigarette smoke anymore every time I go to a restaurant. So I see some of the tobacco laws as having benefits. If I want a good cigar, I have no problem going outside to smoke it and try to do so in a location that won't bother other people. Of course, it's hard to buy American and still get a good cigar. (Bet you didn't think I could bring this back around to the original topic. )

this all boils down to one thing rich and that's called tolerance I would tolerate you so that you could remain free in return you could tolerate me that's the whole problem with our society is that nobody is willing to tolerate anything anymore hence the need for all of these petty laws.try to look at the big picture we all can live together without the help of a huge overbearing
government.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Steve,

I actually consider myself a reasonably intelligent, well informed person with a professional career spanning some 40 years.

I'm glad to now be enlightened to the fact this is not true and that I am now "lost".

Even though you have no clue as to who I am, I do appreciate your profound insight into my character.

Gordon

PS: And yes I do smoke on occasion and totally understand why laws have been passed prohibiting this activity in enclosed "public" spaces.

 

[DrJRapp]

it seems as though any person or group can get together and if they cry hard enough a new stupid law will pass that "protects" everybody and this is now called DEMOCRACY !

Yes that is "democracy" in it's pure form...however, this country's form of government is (at least supposed to be) a Republic and though many people think they are one and the same there are fundamental differences:

A democracy is majority rule and is destructive of liberty because there is no law to prevent the majority from trampling on individual rights. (as you have experienced in not being able to smoke in your own place of business) Whatever the majority says goes! A lynch mob is an example of pure democracy in action. There is only one dissenting vote, and that is cast by the person at the end of the rope.

Republic:

Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them.

Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights, and a sensible economic procedure.

Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences.

Throughout the years there have been numerous nicknames given to these differing forms, such as "liberal" for Democracy and "conservative" for Republic. It's no coincidence that the two major political parties are named Democratic and Republican, with one supporting liberalism and mob rule and the other conservatism and rule of law.


You will notice that nowhere in any of our underlying documents (Dec of Independence, Constitution, etc etc is anything said about mob rule.

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

Liberty is not exactly freedom, it implies a level of responsibility for our actions. We are a nation of liberties and privileges, not a "free" country.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Hi Steve,

I actually consider myself a reasonably intelligent, well informed person with a professional career spanning some 40 years.

I'm glad to now be enlightened to the fact this is not true and that I am now "lost".

Even though you have no clue as to who I am, I do appreciate your profound insight into my character.

Gordon

PS: And yes I do smoke on occasion and totally understand why laws have been passed prohibiting this activity in enclosed "public" spaces.

just relax I am sure you know where you are lol. this is why I try to stop myself from entering in these conversation but I seldom can even though I should as my views are seldom accepted I think if we talked in person we would understand each other much better. owe well I think its about time to light up a big fat cigar:devil:

 

[JMAUSGP]

If I want a good cigar, I have no problem going outside to smoke it and try to do so in a location that won't bother other people. Of course, it's hard to buy American and still get a good cigar. (Bet you didn't think I could bring this back around to the original topic. )

You know, I would say it is impossible to buy a great or even a good American Cigar and I will bet that Fish is not smokin Cuban cigars, I believe that is a freedom of choice that the gobernmint has taken away.

See I brought it back, protectionism, communism, democracy, freedom of choice, Americans buying stuff, wow all rolled up in a cigar, so to speak.

Have you ever noticed religion and politics don't go well with Logans

 

[Gordon Gray]

Steve,

When you make a blanket judgement questioning my integrity and character, absent any personal knowledge of who I am and what I know, it's a bit difficult to relax.

The right thing for you to do is to acknowledge your indiscretion and apologize.

Gordon

 

[Dreamer]

A democracy is majority rule and is destructive of liberty because there is no law to prevent the majority from trampling on individual rights. (as you have experienced in not being able to smoke in your own place of business) Whatever the majority says goes!

My favorite quotation about "democracy" is this:

"A Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."

We ostensibly have a Republic in the US, but in real application it is a Malevolent Oligarchy...

Even Our current Secretary of State has finally admitted that the Government doesn't make policy--they are fed the lines to follow from the Council on foreign Relations and other related "think tanks".

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1857622883?bctid=29636586001

We have two sets of laws here--one for the very rich, and one for everyone else.

 

[Rich]

this all boils down to one thing rich and that's called tolerance I would tolerate you so that you could remain free in return you could tolerate me that's the whole problem with our society is that nobody is willing to tolerate anything anymore hence the need for all of these petty laws.

How much should we tolerate, Fish? If your company is poisoning my drinking water, should I tolerate that? If you wish to ride your A.T.V. across my property every morning at 6:00 a.m., should I tolerate that? It isn't so much about tolerance as it is about people being willing to take personal responsibility for their actions and the effects those actions have on others, and I am afraid that concept disappeared in this country a long time ago. When others have no care for your rights, it is hard to tolerate them.

Now I do understand your point that government continues to grow and feed on itself and regulations can get out of control. But again, saying this amounts to a lack of freedom is short-sighted in my opinion. We still have more basic freedoms in this country today than in many countries throughout the world and throughout history.

 

[Rich]

My favorite quotation about "democracy" is this:

"A Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."

You left off the second part:

"Liberty" is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

 

[FISH_MAN]

How much should we tolerate, Fish? If your company is poisoning my drinking water, should I tolerate that? If you wish to ride your A.T.V. across my property every morning at 6:00 a.m., should I tolerate that? It isn't so much about tolerance as it is about people being willing to take personal responsibility for their actions and the effects those actions have on others, and I am afraid that concept disappeared in this country a long time ago. When others have no care for your rights, it is hard to tolerate them.

Now I do understand your point that government continues to grow and feed on itself and regulations can get out of control. But again, saying this amounts to a lack of freedom is short-sighted in my opinion. We still have more basic freedoms in this country today than in many countries throughout the world and throughout history.

It appears that you have a reasonable point Rich.although I will not agree with all of your ideas I respect your point of view.

 

[Dreamer]

You left off the second part:

"Liberty" is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

Speaking of which, my North Carolina Concealed Carry Permit went through in only 3 weeks. I picked it up this past Monday. Let's just say that my Novak custom Para Ordnance P14.45 has gotten more fresh air in the last week than it has in the last 2 years since I had it built...

Now I need to get my 23-year-old stepdaughter out to the range and teach her how to operate some of my firearms, since she's going to be living with us this fall. She's MUCH more enthusiastic about learning to shoot than my sweetie... :think: I think we'll start her off with my Taurus PT-25, and slowly work up to the .45, and eventually the Remington 870...

But yeah, as screwed up as things are politically here in the USA, we've still got it better than just about any other country on the planet. I mean, England doesn't even have a legal guarantee for a Free Press or Free Speech in their constitution. And an analogue to our 2nd Amendment--ANYWHERE in the world--forget about it...

 

[Dreamer]

It appears that you have a reasonable point Rich.although I will not agree with all of your ideas I respect your point of view.

I think that I can understand your idea that we here in the USA are losing all our rights. Since you live in IL, you probably HAVE lost a lot of rights that some of us in the more "independent-minded" states have tenaciously held on to. Illinois has some of the most egregiously unconstitutional firearms laws in the Union. When our current President says that he wants to move toward a Federal system of firearms laws based on the "Chicago Model", it doesn't inspire much confidence in those of us who actually BELIEVE in the Constitution.

Illinois does not issue Concealed Carry permits to civilians, and Chicago is nearly as restrictive as NYC or DC when it comes to purchasing and possessing a firearm, and look at the violent crime record in Chicago. They had 510 murders and over 19,000 aggravated assaults in 2008.

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Chicago&state=IL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Chicago

For some strange reason, Chicago does not report forcible rapes in their crime statistics in a manner that complies with the FBI's or the NIJ's methods of compiling crime statistics.. I imagine that is because they are so high they are ashamed to admit it. By some researcher's calculations, 2400 out of every 100,000 females in the Chicago Metro area have been sexually assaulted in the last year.

http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/OneVoteOneBrick/blog/&blogId=3963

So in other words, if you are a woman (and especially if you are a minority woman) in Chicago, you have a higher probability of getting sexually assaulted, than you do of seeing the Cubbies get into the playoffs...

If the "Chicago Model" is what the current Feds want to move toward, we're looking at a future with a LOT less freedom, security, and middle-class wealth in the US, and a LOT more crime, graft, and corruption, even though it is difficult to imagine more graft and corruption than the last administration gave us...

 

[FISH_MAN]

I think that I can understand your idea that we here in the USA are losing all our rights. Since you live in IL, you probably HAVE lost a lot of rights that some of us in the more "independent-minded" states have tenaciously held on to. Illinois has some of the most egregiously unconstitutional firearms laws in the Union. When our current President says that he wants to move toward a Federal system of firearms laws based on the "Chicago Model", it doesn't inspire much confidence in those of us who actually BELIEVE in the Constitution.

Illinois does not issue Concealed Carry permits to civilians, and Chicago is nearly as restrictive as NYC or DC when it comes to purchasing and possessing a firearm, and look at the violent crime record in Chicago. They had 510 murders and over 19,000 aggravated assaults in 2008.

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Chicago&state=IL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Chicago

For some strange reason, Chicago does not report forcible rapes in their crime statistics in a manner that complies with the FBI's or the NIJ's methods of compiling crime statistics.. I imagine that is because they are so high they are ashamed to admit it. By some researcher's calculations, 2400 out of every 100,000 females in the Chicago Metro area have been sexually assaulted in the last year.

http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/OneVoteOneBrick/blog/&blogId=3963

So in other words, if you are a woman (and especially if you are a minority woman) in Chicago, you have a higher probability of getting sexually assaulted, than you do of seeing the Cubbies get into the playoffs...

If the "Chicago Model" is what the current Feds want to move toward, we're looking at a future with a LOT less freedom, security, and middle-class wealth in the US, and a LOT more crime, graft, and corruption, even though it is difficult to imagine more graft and corruption than the last administration gave us...

you know Dreamer you are alright with me. Feel free to come over and enjoy a beverage of your choice in front of my spires at any time!

 

[User211]

But yeah, as screwed up as things are politically here in the USA, we've still got it better than just about any other country on the planet. I mean, England doesn't even have a legal guarantee for a Free Press or Free Speech in their constitution. And an analogue to our 2nd Amendment--ANYWHERE in the world--forget about it...

Constitution? What constitution?

Anyway, Richard, I guarantee you our press is free. They spend their lives spying on politicians, bugging their phones, revealing extortionate expense claims, and just generally digging up dirt - which they publish with gay abandon. They are more spied upon than the general public. No wonder they feel the need to spy on us!

Cameras aside, I believe the UK is a safer place to live than the States. Relative safety and freedom from crime is a real civil liberty that shouldn't be underestimated.

Of course I realise that some parts of the US are much safer than others. But Detroit, in particular, seems to have a very bad reputation here. And your gun laws seem almost impossible for your average Brit to understand or even sympathise with.

 

[Gordon]

And to think we only wanted lids made in America! There have been some interesting responses to say the least. I do hope this thread remains open.

I'm not one to believe in absolute protectionism. Trade is required for any country to survive, us included. Unfortunately, it seems we only produce debt which the rest of the world is going to get tired of buying. Fair trade appeals to me and think that the rules need to be changed to level the field.

GM gets 50B of our tax dollars and builds a factory in China. I don't support corporate bailouts in any way, yet, if it is done at least spend my money here and put Americans to work. If we have no jobs here, who does GM think will buy their made in China cars?

Liberty and freedom is slowly being chipped away at in this country. I refuse to buy a SmartPass for the toll roads in an attempt to avoid letting the government know where I'm going. The new ID I have to use to get on to the military installation where I work has a track able chip. I only carry it with me to and from work, never during my off time. The new SmartID winding through congress which will be a set of "papers" for each of us will also have a chip embedded, and if you don't have your "papers", no entry to Federal buildings will be allowed.

The cap and trade bill, certain to pass, will make it very expensive for me to heat and cool my house to the temps I want in order to pay for the uncontrolled spending in D.C.

I've been to many countries in my life and can say without a doubt, the USA is still the finest country in the world. We're going through some wobbly times right now and hope that the American people stand up, toughen up and demand that our unrepresenting representatives start representing.

Gordon

 

[Rich]

I guarantee you our press is free. They spend their lives spying on politicians, bugging their phones, revealing extortionate expense claims, and just generally digging up dirt - which they publish with gay abandon.

And because of that they may appear free, but if there is nothing in the makeup of your government that guarantees that freedom, it can dissipate in a heartbeat during times when it matters the most. Even here, we have to remain continually vigilant to assure our most basic freedoms, such as freedom of the press, remain intact.

Cameras aside, I believe the UK is a safer place to live than the States. Relative safety and freedom from crime is a real civil liberty that shouldn't be underestimated.

And you would be wrong, Justin. U.K. has 85 crimes per 1000 people, the U.S. has 80. Thus, when adjusted for population, the U.K. actually has more crime (barely) than the U.S. (Source) And specifically violent crime? Read this.

And your gun laws seem almost impossible for your average Brit to understand or even sympathise with.

Average citizen's owning guns was the only reason we were able to get out from under England's thumb a few hundred years ago. Perhaps that could help you understand our long-standing tradition of personal gun ownership rights.