Bi-amping Summits

[Burke]

Cherian has lent me one of his Sunfire Symphonic Reference Power Amplifier amps. (250 w/ch, stereo). I have been using it to power up the Summits and it has made a very noticeable difference over the Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXVi receiver. I was amazed at how much better (tighter) the bass seemed with the new amp, since the Summits have powered woofers. I then started to wonder what would happen if I used the Sunfire for the esl panels and let the Pioneer drive the powered woofers. What a jump in sound stage. It now appears much bigger than the room itself. If you have a system that will let you bi-amp then you should definitely try it.

--burke

 

[Kaboomnash]

Burke, I was thinking the same thing for my Vantages. I have a Sony-ES AVR for the subs, and was thinking of buying a seperate amp for the ESL. How did you hook it up?
The results are worth the price of the additional amp?

Lee

 

[Burke]

Burke, I was thinking the same thing for my Vantages. I have a Sony-ES AVR for the subs, and was thinking of buying a seperate amp for the ESL. How did you hook it up?

The Pioneer is my DAC / Preamp, So I took line out for Main L / R, to the Sunfire inputs, Then standard speaker wire to the esl input on the Summit. And then the speaker outputs on the Pioneer to the woofer inputs on the Summits.

The results are worth the price of the additional amp?

A new amp for the Summits, to replace the Pioneer receiver was definitely worth the cost, especially of a good used amp. I am not sure I would buy two new amps (4 channels) to do this with. But if you have a receiver you use as the pre then you can use that amp for free.

 

[roberto]

The Pioneer is my DAC / Preamp, So I took line out for Main L / R, to the Sunfire inputs, Then standard speaker wire to the esl input on the Summit. And then the speaker outputs on the Pioneer to the woofer inputs on the Summits.



A new amp for the Summits, to replace the Pioneer receiver was definitely worth the cost, especially of a good used amp. I am not sure I would buy two new amps (4 channels) to do this with. But if you have a receiver you use as the pre then you can use that amp for free.

Hola Guys...as far as I know, you can't bi amp your Summits or Vantages. You can not by pass their own power amps, and besides, you can't reach the internal crossover built in them. You are allow to biwire, but not bi-amp. Beware of bad connections...you will produce severe damage to them!!!
Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Joey_V]

Biamping Summits... I seriously thought I read something about not doing it.

Careful Burke....

Joey

 

[Burke]

Will double check the manual as soon as I get home. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[nsgarch]

The Summits come bi-amped already. The user just has to supply the mid/hi (panel) amp. Which should be a tube amp IMHO. Anyway, stop yer tinkerin' for God's sake!

 

[Craig]

!!!!!!!!! Don't biamp Summits or Vantages. They have an internal amplifier already and therefore already biamping them...literally. You will gain nothing by adding a third amp to a 2 way speaker but you may damage the speaker. The manual clearly states do not biamp. One good amplifier is all you need.

 

[FatJ]

!!!!!!!!! Don't biamp Summits or Vantages. They have an internal amplifier already and therefore already biamping them...literally. You will gain nothing by adding a third amp to a 2 way speaker but you may damage the speaker. The manual clearly states do not biamp. One good amplifier is all you need.

Quite true. ML does warn not to amp the woofer side of your speaker. If you are running single wire into it they also reccomend that you make sure you run it to the panel and then jumper down to the woofer. They claim that on the Vantage/Summit that using a good quality single wire and replacing the crummy jumper plates with a good copper wire jumper will sound better than a comparable bi-wire set up. This is quite different then what we've grown to expect out of our Logan's but then again, these speakers are quite different than anything else in their line up. I haven't had a chance to A/B it myself but I would be curious to hear the reports of others in this regard.

 

[tonepub]

you might even blow up one of your amps...

Danger will robinson...

 

[Kaboomnash]

Thanks

I appreciate the warning. One of my Vantages is "Out for delivery" today to my house in Colorado. Figures I located the missing Vantage, the second box is listed as arriving in MICHIGAN!!! Good grief DHL.

I already purchased a really nice set of jumpers. Thank you for the advice.

Lee

 

[Craig]

the second box is listed as arriving in MICHIGAN!!! Good grief DHL.

That's DHL speak for..."it fell off the truck somewhere in Michigan"...Just kidding. I hope speaker #2 arrives safely and soon. Where's Cherian when you need him?

I think ( I can't prove anything related to wiring) the quality of the cable makes more of a difference with the Summits and Vantages rather than if they are biwired or single wired. It goes to the same crossover anyway.

I think the reason you can't biamp these speakers is because the woofer amps must divert all the voltage and current to the panels. If you amp directly into the amp (biamped) then the excess volts and ohms will have no where to go except into the speakers amp and/or right back to the amplifier. Neither is good.

 

[Brian_74]

This all makes me wonder how exactly the input to the woofer works. Prepare for a bunch of questions You're feeding it a speaker level signal, not a line level signal. Does it convert it to a fixed voltage internally somehow? If it does divert the excess voltage and current to the panel, how does it work? If you biwire, is the diverted voltage and current flowing back to the power amplifier via the wires connected to the woofer inputs since there is no jumper between the terminals? How does the woofer amp maintain the right volume relative to the panel? Also I don't see why it would matter whether you connect to the panel and jumper to the woofer or vice versa. You've created a signal path between the two sets of terminals and signal can flow in either direction. Thanks for listening to my rambling.

 

[nsgarch]

Craig (and Brian)

I think ( I can't prove anything related to wiring) the quality of the cable makes more of a difference with the Summits and Vantages rather than if they are biwired or single wired. It goes to the same crossover anyway. I think the reason you can't biamp these speakers is because the woofer amps must divert all the voltage and current to the panels. If you amp directly into the amp (biamped) then the excess volts and ohms will have no where to go except into the speakers amp and/or right back to the amplifier. Neither is good.

Here's how the Summits/Vantages work: The incoming signal from your external amp (which drives ONLY the panel(s)) is merely "sampled" by a little circuit ahead of the actual woofer amps. Sort of like "eavesdropping" on the signal. (This circuit doesn't actually use any power from your external amp.) Next, the "eavesdropping" circuit filters out the high frequencies from the signal -- everything above roughly 100 Hz. Then, and only then is that signal (now with just bass information) sent to the woofer amp(s) inside the speaker. If you think about it, you'll realize that it's totally pointless to biwire a Summit or Vantage. I mean, why spend all that extra money on another run of speaker cable that isn't going to be driving anything, but only providing a "listening post" on which the woofer amp(s) eavesdrop?

If you want to improve things, get a really good pair of jumper wires to replace the solid straps between the speaker terminals.

 

[JonFo]

+1 on what Nsgarch and Craig posted.

No gains at all from bi-amping or bi-wiring these models.

It's actually one of the big benefits of the summit and other internally amped woofer type speakers to have their own custom-adapted amp and crossover combo for the low-frequencies. No guess-work on our part, all nicely done at the factory for us.

 

[Marcello]

There is one question coming to my mind after I've read the things above:

Why do they offer two sets of binding posts when either bi-wiring or bi-amping makes no sense or is dangerous?

Why doesn't they install a high quality internal connection replacing the external jumper?

...allready two questions.....Marcello

 

[nsgarch]

that's a great (two part) question Marcello!

There is one question coming to my mind after I've read the things above:Why do they offer two sets of binding posts when either bi-wiring or bi-amping makes no sense or is dangerous?Why doesn't they install a high quality internal connection replacing the external jumper?...allready two questions.....Marcello

Please email your question to Jim Power at MartinLogan and tell us what he says. (I bother him too much already ;-) His email is [email protected]

 

[Rich]

Please email your question to Jim Power at MartinLogan and tell us what he says. (I bother him too much already ;-) His email is [email protected]

This is an excellent question. Why indeed have two sets of binding posts if there is no benefit to bi-wiring and if bi-amping is not recommended and could even be hazardous? An internally-wired connection is always going to sound better than an external jumper, and it would ensure that they don't get hooked up wrong. Are they just trying to make it have the "look" of a higher end speaker by providing a useless secondary set of binding posts? That is so not necessary.

I have always wondered why they didn't just provide a line level input for the bass signal on Summits and Vantages (like they do on their subwoofers). Seems like that would be a much simpler and cleaner way to get the signal to the internal amps. I asked about this at the National Get-Together but never could get a straight answer.

 

[akm3]

They probably feel the consumer is too dumb and would shun the product if it couldn't be bi-amped or bi-wired. So they put a useless second connector on it.

 

[roberto]

This is an excellent question. Why indeed have two sets of binding posts if there is no benefit to bi-wiring and if bi-amping is not recommended and could even be hazardous? An internally-wired connection is always going to sound better than an external jumper, and it would ensure that they don't get hooked up wrong. Are they just trying to make it have the "look" of a higher end speaker by providing a useless secondary set of binding posts? That is so not necessary.

I have always wondered why they didn't just provide a line level input for the bass signal on Summits and Vantages (like they do on their subwoofers). Seems like that would be a much simpler and cleaner way to get the signal to the internal amps. I asked about this at the National Get-Together but never could get a straight answer.

Hola...because there are many people that was using bi-wire cables, the reason for two binding posts is that you still can use these cables with your new Summits. There is no need to change them. On the other hand, you can use single wire connection too. Happy listening,
Roberto.