Apogee Duetta Signature Rebuild

[Reality Audio]

Hello

Thought I might join in as everyone is talking about my work

I would agree that Apogee planar bass is different to cone bass, but the new panels have better dynamics than the original ones, so they do have better attack and slam.
Also improving and changing the mid/tweeter crossover configuration gives them more presence on voices, I always thought the standard Duettas gave a slightly rose-tinted view to music, very good for long listening sessions, but lacking a bit of excitement on rock music.

The 1 ohm Scintilla is probably the best original Apogee (discounting the new ones), but they do really need pretty big rooms (and amps) to do them justice. Best combo I have heard so far was with Pass Labs X600 mono's, even in a very big room playing Rage Against the Machine they hardly sounded like they were trying!

Jon

 

[Reality Audio]

Hi Justin,

You must have been posting while I was writing mine.

The original Duetta was built with steel angle iron bracing top and bottom of the rear section like the Scintillas, and a simple 6dB/octave crossover and too attenuated at the top end so they sound dull. These are rare over here, have rebuilt one pair but they actually came from Saudi Arabia (owner is a airline pilot).
Duetta II's are structurally the same as Duetta Signatures apart from the cover and stands. Crossover is improved, but they still sound a bit dull. Duetta II's can easily be turned into Signatures.
Duetta Signatures had a revised crossover (which mostly fixed the top end response which made Martin Collums happy) and sturdy aluminium support legs.

Jon

 

[User211]

Look what arrived today

One Apogee in shipping crate. Not easy to move. Takes two people and it is a bit of a struggle, really.

Tried three amps today, the 211s, the Behringer and Jon Oakey's Rowans. Jon was in full agreement that that the 211s where driving the Aps well. In fact, all three amps did a great job - I think these speakers just naturally sound good and aren't as amp fussy as the Logans.

They are definately better than the Ascents by a some margin. I think that's a real achievement. Someone desperately needs to start making these things again in larger volumes.

More later...

Oh - they are beyond immaculate, a real top job done here by Jon. Totally professionally finished. Excellent shipping crates. No bodge job here. Brilliant. They don't come quickly (8 months) but they are worth the money and the wait.

These things go low in a way no ESL can match, except for possibly the huge US Soundlabs. And they sound seemless and "of a piece" from top to bottom - as expected, really, given that it's all done by the same driver material.

Adam - definately no treble issues here. However, the crossovers are not the same as Graz's, but whether that was the problem you had I guess we'll never know. Jon has actually restored a lot more pairs than Graz has, I was interested to find out. Graz concentrates on bits, really.

 

[amey01]

Wow - finally. Great to hear, and am pleased there are no treble issues for you. As for the bass - all I can say is "I know" - hearing clean bass (ie. no subwoofer, cones, box colouration) down that low (I reckon the ones I heard were going clean and flat down to around 25Hz AT LEAST) is something of a treat!!!

 

[User211]

The statement above about the Ascents - let's put it this way - they have a blend of virtues that seem to present music in a more preferable manner than the Ascents, at least to my ears. I'll live with them for a while before writing a more detailed summation of their sound, and get to know them better.

 

[Bernard]

Great-looking speaker Justin. Love the colour.

Would be nice if you could compare them with CLX's.

 

[spectral]

Justin - congratulations. I am eager to read your reviews. I can't recall though - did you find the originals that you then sent in for restoration, or do the restorers usually find what one is looking for?

 

[User211]

Great-looking speaker Justin. Love the colour.

Would be nice if you could compare them with CLX's.

I'll try and do that - though my exposure to the CLX's was limited to about two to three hours, now I think about it. So it's not really fair for me to say too much about the CLX - just sweeping generalised comments about them, I guess.

But I sincerely wish you, and some of the other forum members could come round here and listen to what I'm hearing. I really do.

I'll have what's known as a bake-off here, and get a few people round. I went to one in Pontypool, South Wales, today, in fact.

 

[User211]

Justin - congratulations. I am eager to read your reviews. I can't recall though - did you find the originals that you then sent in for restoration, or do the restorers usually find what one is looking for?

The restorer found them. Re-built, they are a bargain. But Graz will build you some Duetta Sigs from scratch, and that'll cost, but the spec will be better than the originals. I think Graz's Synergy, with upgraded more powerful magnets is probably totally amazing. According to Jon Oakey, they are.

Judging from Jon's comments, Apogee build quality wasn't great. Poor paint mixing, slipping magnets, not the best components etc. These re-builds are definately better than any Duettas they ever built, I think it's safe to say.

I'm feeling very priviledged and very smug

 

[C.A.P]

I think it's safe to say.

I'm feeling very priviledged and very smug

I think its safe to say I'm :bowdown:very envious !

 

[Bernard]

But I sincerely wish you, and some of the other forum members could come round here and listen to what I'm hearing. I really do.

Justin, I'll consider that an invitation if ever I make it to good old Blighty !

 

[MiTT]

Me too. I'll bring beer. Or Burbon.

Seriously though Justin, they look great. I bet you're going to really enjoy listening to every recording you own all over again. I'd love to hear them myself someday!

 

[twich54]

But I sincerely wish you, and some of the other forum members could come round here and listen to what I'm hearing. I really do..

Justin......maybe....just maybe I might make it "across the pond" this summer, if so, you'll hear from me !

In the meantime they look great ! ....Enjoy !

 

[User211]

Here's a few things I can safely say so far. Comments refer to the Aps driven by a Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista/Austria Analog 211 PSE monos and a Michell GyroOrbe/Morch DP6/Transfiguration Orpheus/Trichord Delphini + Never Connected PSU.

I have to say I have posted this elsewhere, and it is not written with any sensitivity to MLs as a result. This is simply the truth as I see it. If the truth hurts, well, sometimes the truth hurts. As always, YMMV.

1) They go low. No need for a subwoofer in any way, shape or form. ML Descent removed from room last night.

2) They're very good at all volumes, whereas the MLs needed a good dose of juice to really get them going.

3) They are a better speaker design than Martin Logans. No dynamic driver blending issues to speak off, simply because they are not required, which is very cool.

4) They sound more consistently good over a wider range of source material than the Martin Logans. Stuff that used to be a bit painful/hard work with the MLs is not with the Aps.

5) Bass heavy material is overloading the room a bit. Need to experiment with positioning. Might need some bass traps.

6) They are more musical than the MLs - you think more about the music than the hi-fi when listening.

7) They only have around 70 hours on the ribbons. They need around 150 to get the best from them, according to Graz.

8) Much has been made of the dynamics of Apogees - but essentially, they still sound like planars.

9) They're pretty and look cool in blue.

10) Got pretty shocked in daylight when the sun was shinning on the bass panels and I was looking at them. I thought "what's wrong with me - it looks like the room is shaking". Actually, it was the first time I noticed the panels literally shimmering back and forth. It's quite a thing to see. A bit discomboberating at first, to say the least!

11) They sound very even from top to bottom. Very "cohesive". Which is what I was looking for over and above the MLs and what you'd expect from the design.

12) They produce a big, big sound due to the surface area of the drivers.

13) They produce a very fatigue free sound - long listening sessions definately very enjoyable.

14) They sound more convincingly real than the MLs did.

15) I like them a lot, thank god!

I need to get my kit sorted out so that the 211s are on stands of some sort - and use a different hi-fi rack. Lights behind the panels work brilliantly at night, and shine through the ribbons. Very nice.

When that's sorted, I'll post a few in-room pics.

 

[User211]

Bernard - with respect to the CLX.

Well, the bass goes lower - so no need for the JL Fathoms or 2x Descents.

Scale is less as they are smaller. But not by a huge amount.

They do, I think, sound more balsy than the CLX and have more weight versus CLX with no subs.

I'd need to have the CLX and the DS's side-by-side in the same room to make a fair comparison. I'll never be able to do that.

I will say that the CLX is an ace speaker, but the bass shortcoming really does mean subs are a must if you like deep bass. That said, the CLX manages to sound balanced without a sub - which is cool.

EDIT: the Descent actually blended well with the Aps. But it just doesn't add that much to them. I don't feel the need to keep it. Great sub for sure, though. Possibly, that contravenes with point 1) above a little bit.

Also, the CLX does not sound the similar to the Apogee. I am not sure how I'd put the difference in words, above and beyond what I have said above.

Frustratingly, I will never know what an original Duetta Sig sounded like. I wish I could turn back the clock to see how improved over the originals these really are.

So what we have here is a speaker that manages to comfortably beat 2 ESL panels plus 5 big dynamic cones, 3 of which are driven by 200 Watt class Ds. Now that's some achievement. I'm genuinely really deeply impressed.

Also, I just noticed a post by a Scintilla owner on the Apogee forum, stating he thought they were superior to his Soundlab U-1s. These Scintillas were re-ribboned in 2008.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Justin,

I had the same reaction when I listened to the Analysis Audio ribbon speaker.

That speaker, or the MBL, would be my next speaker of choice, assuming ML stat R and D remains stagnant.

GG

 

[User211]

Justin,

I had the same reaction when I listened to the Analysis Audio ribbon speaker.

That speaker, or the MBL, would be my next speaker of choice, assuming ML stat R and D remains stagnant.

GG

Yup - those MBL 101Es really are rather good, aren't they Gordon?

 

[spectral]

Justin,

I had the same reaction when I listened to the Analysis Audio ribbon speaker.

That speaker, or the MBL, would be my next speaker of choice, assuming ML stat R and D remains stagnant.

GG

Wow what a coincidence... a fellow member here in the area let me listen to his newly acquired Amphytrions - what a speaker, and what remarkable build quality. I am actively seeking an audition of the Omegas. If you do listen yourself would you please let me know? Thanks.

Justin, really glad you adore your new Apogees so much. There is much envy and admiration over here

 

[Gordon Gray]

Peter,

I've heard both models only under show conditions.

The Amphys are the next model up from the Omegas, if I recall correctly.

One of our former ML members, Paulo, has the Amphys.

Same sonic signature, musicality and magic.

I could live, very comfortably, with the Omegas.

GG

 

[User211]

I nearly bought some Amphs after talking to Tassos Hartsis, who founded Analysis Audio in 1991 - his personal pair in fact. He was upgrading to Orions.

The price was great (£6000), but I couldn't get them serviced here. They'd also nearly touch the ceiling in my listening room. He was fairly insistent they'd be OK in smaller rooms. I wasn't too sure

I heard the Omega, as I think I said earlier in the thread, about 15 years ago in London. Never forgot it. That's is what inspired this re-build.

It uses a different bass ribbon arrangement to an Apogee. The restorer think the Apogee arrangement is superior. Whilst I can't comment on that, the Omega is very good from memory.

The cheap way is to go to the Gon, get an old pair of Aps, and get them refurbished. Omegas cost a lot new. You want Duetta Sigs, Divas or Scintillas for best results.