Apogee Duetta Signature Rebuild
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User211
Well-known member
If CLS panels dry up I sure know where Im going.
East Coast USA
Bill Thalmann
MUSIC TECHNOLOGY, INC.
5418 Port Royal Road
Springfield, VA 22151
Tel: 703-764-7005 Fax: 703-764-0079
www.musictechnology.com
West Coast USA
Rich Murry
True Sound Works Inc
2664 Wildhorse Lane
Minden, NV 89423
Office - (775) 267-4244
www.truesoundworks.com
If you do, Chris, you absolutely will not regret it... at least if these guy's are as good as Jon.
Bernard
Well-known member
Justin, where do these guys get their Apogees? Are there that many hanging around?
User211
Well-known member
Bernard - they do pop up on the auction sites quite a bit. But I expect there are people out there who can't live without them - so they just get 'em refurbed - that's probably their main business. Bit like Logan owner's replacing their panels.
zaphod
Well-known member
yep, there is a used pair of Diva local to me for $2980, and a used pair of Centaur Minor for $750 at a Canadian dealer I'm real familiar with, and greatly trust.
so the Apogee's are out there ....
User211
Well-known member
TrueSoundWorks wanted $10K for some 8/10 Divas restored. But they had the marbled finish which I guess they didn't want to touch - hence 8/10 I suspect.
Sadly, if you want 10/10, its gonna cost more...
Sadly, if you want 10/10, its gonna cost more...
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Cursed1
Active member
I have a pair that I am going to sell. The left speaker is only half operational. The right is in perfect working order.
Wasnt a 10/10 Bo Derek .............:ROFL:
User211
Well-known member
Well, I’m bored and tired after a heavy night out last night, so I thought it’d be interesting to address Adam’s review point by point. Here goes...
* The bass was the best......wow, huge, authoratitive, and best of all deep! Like there was a sub, except it was crystal clear and uncoloured and fast. The dyamic woofers are the worst part about our systems I'd say! Equal (but different) to that of the CLX.
Yup – it is very good indeed, but it is better than the CLX with regards to extension, without doubt. It also sounds stronger with more weight as a result.
* The midrange was clean and clear, but a bit more laid back that my Vistas. I'd put it at more "polite" and the Vista more "showy". I prefer the Vista obviously, but maybe that's just because I'm used to it. Sometimes the more restrained Apogee shocked me with its realism, but all up, I prefer the Vista. It dances out into the room much more.
Hm – it is more polite, I agree – but that is because the whole speaker sounds more balanced from top to bottom than my Ascents. See below for why I think this is the case.
* The top end really let it down. Really. Not extended at all. Quite clangy and clashy. It really detracted from the performance for me. While the Vistas are airy and fast, these seemed bogged down, slow and quite harsh in a way. Could it have been that McCormack or the Arcam? Especailly since I'm used to a valve preamp. Not sure.
I think it’s really good, but it isn’t 100% perfect, as noted by Martin Colloms. He described it well in his review, so please read that, but tries to attribute some of the blame to the source material. In fact after having these for a while, I think his review is very good account of how they really do sound. When I first read it, I though “nah – they can’t be that good”, but reconsidering it now, it is basically an accurate, if slightly hyped, review. It makes me think that the personality of the speaker must still be really quite close to the originals. There’s a link to the review earlier in this thread.
What’s really interesting about the MC review is that it appears to be timeless... the comments he made 20 years ago still apply now, and I’m sure if Duetta Sigs went back into larger scale production the enthusiasm for them today would be as eager as it was in 1988. This 20+ year old design would still be majorly competitive today, assuming the price was right. Do a Google search for the current day equiv – the Analysis Omega – the reviews are pretty good, right? It’s pretty much the same tech.
I actually think the treble is better resolved than the Ascent. Cymbals, for instance, actually sound more like real cymbals. And there’s a crystalline like clarity to some high frequency stuff that the Ascent never got close to reproducing, whether driven by tube or SS amps.
* Imaging was a mixed bag. It was big - much bigger tham I'm used to, and very stable, however it was not so defined and accurate. The reach out and touch the performers was not there - there was more of a "wall of sound" effect. It also didn't extend too far beyond the speakers / room, whereas my Vistas do. Image wasn't very 3D either - certainly not as much as the Vistas.
I think the ML curved panel is responsible for this perception. Basically, it chucks sound all over the place and causes all sorts of reflections off side walls. It also makes the speakers very critical of set up positioning. All of us here know this is true. It’s interesting to see Mr Sanders saying he thinks it isn’t the best approach. It may well be the reason that ML users think they benefit by having room treatments on the side walls.
The dispersion pattern of an ML consequently sounds very entertaining and quite thrilling, especially at higher volumes. I remember a work colleague coming round for a listen and staying the Ascents “don’t half chuck the sound around” and for the FR covered by the panel this is certainly true. I personally think this can make MLs a little tiring on long term listening sessions. But it is impressive in its own way, and quite addicting if you like this presentation.
Imaging is much closer to something like a Quad 2905 than an ML. But whilst the imaging is flatter, things hang in space in a very precise and well resolved manner. If you’ve heard the Analysis Omega, the imaging of the Apogee is very similar.
* Dynamics were not what I'm used to with the Vistas - don't get me wrong, the bass had impact, but the rest of the spectrum just didn't have that startling effect.
I think the Duettas have more impact and rock better than the Ascent/Descent combo. Because the treble and mid-range emanate from the same height range as the bass panel, the speaker sounds better balanced and less “thin” than an ML. I remember arguing this point with Rich in a thread a while back. I don’t think he ever really agreed with me, but I still think I’m right about it – and this point is especially brought home when listening to the Duettas. The ear does know about height – don’t believe me? Click your fingers above and below your head. Sounds different, right?
There have also been statements on UK forums about MLs moving the sound “up and down” the speaker on some instruments. This is because of the disparity in emission of frequency range versus height, I’d wager. The CLX doesn’t have this problem, and it sounds much more balanced in a very similar way to the Apogee – basically because they are both doing the same thing.
To be fair, it isn’t just me that thinks Apogees sound more dynamic than ESLs, it is a point made in some reviews.
* The Duettas were capable of resolving slightly more detail across the audio band. I felt like I was hearing more of the recording, if that makes sense.
I also think they sound more accurate than the Ascents. Pick an instrument, and compare it to the sound that is produced by the corresponding real instrument, I believe the Duetta is closer to it than the Ascent is, for the most part. Piano, especially, sounds much more like a real piano.
The ML hybrids can have a really nice liquidity to them, especially when driven by very nice tube amps, or a nice Nelson Pass effort, for instance. It’s very seductive. But that is also present in the Duetta, but over a greater frequency range. Radiohead’s Kid A, or Massive Attack’s Heligoland, or Pitch Black’s Rude Mechanicals are prime examples of this being displayed in abundance. These albums all employ a good dose of synth, so perhaps a lot to do with that perception is the recordings themselves, but both ESL and ribbon techs seem to do very well with this type of material in a way that conventional speakers don’t seem to be able to match.
* Duettas win on the value for money stakes that's for sure - he got the Apogees a few years ago for only $2,000 and another $2,000 for the refurb - my Vistas were $8,000! Double the price!
A post refurbed used pair of True Sound Works Duetta Sigs just went on Audiogon for $6800 – no idea when the refurb was done. Even used Vantages are going for around $3500. I know which the better investment is
Are you sure he paid $4000? I think that's a bit low, TBH
* The bass was the best......wow, huge, authoratitive, and best of all deep! Like there was a sub, except it was crystal clear and uncoloured and fast. The dyamic woofers are the worst part about our systems I'd say! Equal (but different) to that of the CLX.
Yup – it is very good indeed, but it is better than the CLX with regards to extension, without doubt. It also sounds stronger with more weight as a result.
* The midrange was clean and clear, but a bit more laid back that my Vistas. I'd put it at more "polite" and the Vista more "showy". I prefer the Vista obviously, but maybe that's just because I'm used to it. Sometimes the more restrained Apogee shocked me with its realism, but all up, I prefer the Vista. It dances out into the room much more.
Hm – it is more polite, I agree – but that is because the whole speaker sounds more balanced from top to bottom than my Ascents. See below for why I think this is the case.
* The top end really let it down. Really. Not extended at all. Quite clangy and clashy. It really detracted from the performance for me. While the Vistas are airy and fast, these seemed bogged down, slow and quite harsh in a way. Could it have been that McCormack or the Arcam? Especailly since I'm used to a valve preamp. Not sure.
I think it’s really good, but it isn’t 100% perfect, as noted by Martin Colloms. He described it well in his review, so please read that, but tries to attribute some of the blame to the source material. In fact after having these for a while, I think his review is very good account of how they really do sound. When I first read it, I though “nah – they can’t be that good”, but reconsidering it now, it is basically an accurate, if slightly hyped, review. It makes me think that the personality of the speaker must still be really quite close to the originals. There’s a link to the review earlier in this thread.
What’s really interesting about the MC review is that it appears to be timeless... the comments he made 20 years ago still apply now, and I’m sure if Duetta Sigs went back into larger scale production the enthusiasm for them today would be as eager as it was in 1988. This 20+ year old design would still be majorly competitive today, assuming the price was right. Do a Google search for the current day equiv – the Analysis Omega – the reviews are pretty good, right? It’s pretty much the same tech.
I actually think the treble is better resolved than the Ascent. Cymbals, for instance, actually sound more like real cymbals. And there’s a crystalline like clarity to some high frequency stuff that the Ascent never got close to reproducing, whether driven by tube or SS amps.
* Imaging was a mixed bag. It was big - much bigger tham I'm used to, and very stable, however it was not so defined and accurate. The reach out and touch the performers was not there - there was more of a "wall of sound" effect. It also didn't extend too far beyond the speakers / room, whereas my Vistas do. Image wasn't very 3D either - certainly not as much as the Vistas.
I think the ML curved panel is responsible for this perception. Basically, it chucks sound all over the place and causes all sorts of reflections off side walls. It also makes the speakers very critical of set up positioning. All of us here know this is true. It’s interesting to see Mr Sanders saying he thinks it isn’t the best approach. It may well be the reason that ML users think they benefit by having room treatments on the side walls.
The dispersion pattern of an ML consequently sounds very entertaining and quite thrilling, especially at higher volumes. I remember a work colleague coming round for a listen and staying the Ascents “don’t half chuck the sound around” and for the FR covered by the panel this is certainly true. I personally think this can make MLs a little tiring on long term listening sessions. But it is impressive in its own way, and quite addicting if you like this presentation.
Imaging is much closer to something like a Quad 2905 than an ML. But whilst the imaging is flatter, things hang in space in a very precise and well resolved manner. If you’ve heard the Analysis Omega, the imaging of the Apogee is very similar.
* Dynamics were not what I'm used to with the Vistas - don't get me wrong, the bass had impact, but the rest of the spectrum just didn't have that startling effect.
I think the Duettas have more impact and rock better than the Ascent/Descent combo. Because the treble and mid-range emanate from the same height range as the bass panel, the speaker sounds better balanced and less “thin” than an ML. I remember arguing this point with Rich in a thread a while back. I don’t think he ever really agreed with me, but I still think I’m right about it – and this point is especially brought home when listening to the Duettas. The ear does know about height – don’t believe me? Click your fingers above and below your head. Sounds different, right?
There have also been statements on UK forums about MLs moving the sound “up and down” the speaker on some instruments. This is because of the disparity in emission of frequency range versus height, I’d wager. The CLX doesn’t have this problem, and it sounds much more balanced in a very similar way to the Apogee – basically because they are both doing the same thing.
To be fair, it isn’t just me that thinks Apogees sound more dynamic than ESLs, it is a point made in some reviews.
* The Duettas were capable of resolving slightly more detail across the audio band. I felt like I was hearing more of the recording, if that makes sense.
I also think they sound more accurate than the Ascents. Pick an instrument, and compare it to the sound that is produced by the corresponding real instrument, I believe the Duetta is closer to it than the Ascent is, for the most part. Piano, especially, sounds much more like a real piano.
The ML hybrids can have a really nice liquidity to them, especially when driven by very nice tube amps, or a nice Nelson Pass effort, for instance. It’s very seductive. But that is also present in the Duetta, but over a greater frequency range. Radiohead’s Kid A, or Massive Attack’s Heligoland, or Pitch Black’s Rude Mechanicals are prime examples of this being displayed in abundance. These albums all employ a good dose of synth, so perhaps a lot to do with that perception is the recordings themselves, but both ESL and ribbon techs seem to do very well with this type of material in a way that conventional speakers don’t seem to be able to match.
* Duettas win on the value for money stakes that's for sure - he got the Apogees a few years ago for only $2,000 and another $2,000 for the refurb - my Vistas were $8,000! Double the price!
A post refurbed used pair of True Sound Works Duetta Sigs just went on Audiogon for $6800 – no idea when the refurb was done. Even used Vantages are going for around $3500. I know which the better investment is
Are you sure he paid $4000? I think that's a bit low, TBH
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User211
Well-known member
User211
Well-known member
Some may find this interesting over time. You should see the thoughts of those who attend the bake-off eventually...
Apogee Bake-Off
Apogee Bake-Off
User211
Well-known member
Baked off happened yesterday. Pics & comments on the quoted link. Enjoy.
Features Nagra CDP, Rowland 301 monos, Wyred-4-Sound monos, Music First Silver wired pre, Apogee Perigees, Accuphase CDP, Rowan monos, Austria Analog 211 monos and other very nice kit.
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User211
Well-known member
Appalling sonics from my cheap Samsung HD24HD, but it is in 720p HD, so the visuals aren't too bad.
Apogee Duetta Sigs on YouTube
Apogee Duetta Sigs on YouTube
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Jimna
Well-known member
Nice, as a picture junky that was a total win! Those speakers are so beautiful, well done!
Justin,
Very nice:bowdown:
Was that a subwoofer I saw in the video?
And what exactly was the music playing in the video, nice bass?
Again, very nice, you must be beside yourself with that tingling feeling.....hopefully it is not terminal.
Very nice:bowdown:
Was that a subwoofer I saw in the video?
And what exactly was the music playing in the video, nice bass?
Again, very nice, you must be beside yourself with that tingling feeling.....hopefully it is not terminal.
User211
Well-known member
Well, Jim, if anyone is guilty of ramming a pair of Duettas down everyone's throat, it is me, I suppose It was a world first, though, no Duettas on YouTube - as was my CLX video in 2008.
Yup - that is a rather unused Descent in the video. The chap that bought my Ascents wants it. He's over the moon with the Ascents - really likes them, as did I. It's back in the room as it is a convenient place to put it, but very occasionally I use it on recordings with zilsch bass. It uses some antiquated technology called class D and cone drivers, I think - not too sure, though
Music is a few posts above - Pitch Black - Rude Mechanicals - South Of The Line. If you need a good serving of bass, most of their stuff satisfies Get the right Pitch Black, though - there are two bands with the same name.
It was a world first, though, no Duettas on YouTube - as was my CLX video in 2008.Yup - that is a rather unused Descent in the video. The chap that bought my Ascents wants it. He's over the moon with the Ascents - really likes them, as did I. It's back in the room as it is a convenient place to put it, but very occasionally I use it on recordings with zilsch bass. It uses some antiquated technology called class D and cone drivers, I think - not too sure, though
Music is a few posts above - Pitch Black - Rude Mechanicals - South Of The Line. If you need a good serving of bass, most of their stuff satisfies
Get the right Pitch Black, though - there are two bands with the same name.
User211
Well-known member
Nope it isn't - 2 channel CD only. Videos can be deceptive...
When (if) you hear it, though, Jim, you will realise it is 100% ace sounding, even on CD. Well worth tracking down.
When (if) you hear it, though, Jim, you will realise it is 100% ace sounding, even on CD. Well worth tracking down.
User211
Well-known member
Jim - James Tiberius Kirk - the one with the interstellar ML system!
Joe - this is the one: Pitch Black Rude Mechanicals
There seems to be an import for $40 but it looks to be the same in terms of tracks to me. The whole album was re-mixed as Rhythm, Sound & Movement , which I have - but the original is better. Ape to Angel is very good, as are most of the other albums. Best start where recommended, though
Joe - this is the one: Pitch Black Rude Mechanicals
There seems to be an import for $40 but it looks to be the same in terms of tracks to me. The whole album was re-mixed as Rhythm, Sound & Movement , which I have - but the original is better. Ape to Angel is very good, as are most of the other albums. Best start where recommended, though
