Anyone Heard the new Abyss?

[Reverb2009]

That's some nice power plant you got there, Joe!

Ya,

The ladies like me for the size of my Power Plant. They all come over and go... Ooooo' your power plant is sooooo big.

 

[Reverb2009]

Very cool...Power Regeneration to get clean power. Initial impressions?

So far I am trying to figure out how I have gone this long without one?

This thing is amazing, Nose floor has dropped, Detail has increased and the sound stage is huge! I am hearing sounds and background dialog in DVD’s and CD’s I have never heard before.

If anyone would like to buy my Monster Cable HTPS-7000SS, it is on Ebay right now with no reserve. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...90004813219&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MESE:IT&rd=1

 

[Tiberium]

You said it couldn't compete. Now you say it gets killed in tests.

The SVS does kill ML in all tests.

I ran a true Double Blind test with a lot of people and the SVS finished 3rd, behind a ML sub.

Everyone has a different opinion on what sounds good.

but they don't go as low as a Bag End.

Bag end = bose because they fudge their numbers so bad.

Thats why the balanced design ML uses works. 3 drivers that move extremely fast... they create a more articulated sound.

Some people think it works I don't.

 

[Tiberium]

Has anyone heard the DTS-20 from danley sounds?

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/DANLEY_dts20.htm

 

[tsd2005]

The SVS does kill ML in all tests.



Everyone has a different opinion on what sounds good.



Bag end = bose because they fudge their numbers so bad.



Some people think it works I don't.

I don't know where to start... comparing Bag End to Bose? That must be why major studios, etc. use Bag End subs. Because they're all hype. Wait where is this Hype from Bag End.

I've done SPL tests on a Bag End, SVS, etc. The Bag End hands down went lower than any other sub. It is what Bag End does. Can we hear anything at 8HZ? No. Does Bag End claim that the ability to go that low helps the rest? Yes. Do I believe it? I don't know. What I do know is that they're some of the fastest subs out there.

I don't know, but saying that you don't think the Balance Force design works is well... silly.

Also saying SVS kills ML in all tests is bogus. You're making it up for some unknown reason.

 

[DTB300]

Let us all take a deep breath and relax a little...

For seeing some tests results on a group of subs (no the Bag End has not been tested here) go to this site:

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14971&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

For tests on the ML Depth here is the link:
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=18352&start=0&rid=14&SQ=1147288566

The Depth had a response of: +/-3dB points: 16.5Hz -> >150Hz

For tests on the SVS PB12 Plus/2 here is the link:
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14729&start=0&rid=14&SQ=1126361620

SVS had a response of: +/-3dB points: 17.5Hz -> 94.4Hz

Briefly looking at these tests:

- The SVS can put out higher SPL's at lower frequencys - so if SPL's is your thing then the tests point towards SVS.

- If response, distortion and group delay is your thing, then the tests point towards ML.

BTW, if anyone is interested in reading a review of the Bag End sub here is the link:
http://www.soundstage.com/video/revequip/bagend_infrasub18.htm

But tests are just tests - a bunch of numbers, and not real world listening in each of our rooms. This is the TRUE TEST for all of us and will help each of us determine what is the BEST sub for our rooms, setups, and likings.

Dan

 

[attyonline]

It is not clear to me from his posts if Tiberium has listened and compared ML to SVS or not. I have. I owned a SVS Ulra which I directly compared to my ML Depth. They both went below 20 hz flat according to my Velo EQ. The SVS may play louder, but in my 17 x 13 room, both played as loud as I would ever want and I doubt I was stressing the capabilities of either. I believe the Depth had much better midbass articulation on both effects and music. It was easy to tell the difference between a bass and cello when they played in similar ranges with the Depth, while they tended to sound about the same with the Ultra. The xover area with my Aerius i was seamless with the Depth. Took more messing with xover slopes on my SMS-1 to get the Ultra to sound as good. In sum, the differnces were not great, but favored the Depth. Its small size is also a plus in my small room and benefits my back too. As I have previously posted, I greatly respect SVS, but feel that ML should get more kudos for its great subs. I have tried all but the Descent in my home, and every one sounded great. I sold my Ultra and kept the Depth. It may also be helpful to others to note that prior to buying the Depth, I have owned or used 7 subs in the past three years. The first and greatest improvement in bass quality in my room came with the Velo SMS-1. This device IMO is the greatest single step forward for bass quality in the last ten years or more. If your room has significant bass problems not amenable to positioning, it is a godsend. My room has a huge peak between 25 and 40 hz which is not affected by positioning anywhere in the room other than in the middle . The SMS-1 cured this problem in dramatic fashion. The phase and polarity controls are also very helpful. In an unsuspected incident, I found the Depth provided flatter response in my room with its polarity reversed relative to my mains. This was very surprising since I have ML mains and center, and in every other sub I used with the SMS-1 including SVS and the two smaller subs in the ML lineup, the positive settting provided a substantially flatter output. Go figure! Never would have known this without the SMS-1.

 

[DTB300]

It is not clear to me from his posts if Tiberium has listened and compared ML to SVS or not. I have. I owned a SVS Ulra which I directly compared to my ML Depth. They both went below 20 hz flat according to my Velo EQ. The SVS may play louder, but in my 17 x 13 room, both played as loud as I would ever want and I doubt I was stressing the capabilities of either. I believe the Depth had much better midbass articulation on both effects and music. It was easy to tell the difference between a bass and cello when they played in similar ranges with the Depth, while they tended to sound about the same with the Ultra.

Excellent post regarding how well a sub SOUNDS when reproducing bass, and not just bass output. This is great information about both subs for those looking or may be looking for a sub.

The tests at AVTalk are interesting to look at and make guesses about how they sound. The Depth does stand out statistically very well against some well respected and talked about subs not only in the lineup that day, but in the other tests as well.

The first and greatest improvement in bass quality in my room came with the Velo SMS-1. This device IMO is the greatest single step forward for bass quality in the last ten years or more.

I cannot agree with you more. The SMS-1 is one of the best additions I have purchased. The best thing about the SMS-1 is that it will work with ANY sub out there to improve its sound quality. Make a great sub sound even better!!

Dan

 

[cstory]

I am a little late to the thread, but I wanted to chime in with my personal experiences. First of all it is amazing how passionate people become when it comes to discussing subwoofers. Secondly, keep in mind that the greatest influence on the sound of bass is going to be the room. You can talk for days about how sub A beats sub B in person C's room, but put those two subs in a different room and sudenly it's the other way around. The only real way to audition a subwoofer is to connect to your electronics and speakers in your room. The absence of a showroom for SVS, Hsu, Axiom, ACI, Rocket, etc is of little consequence since listening to them in a showroom will tell you nothing about how they integrate with your system and your room.

As for the love hate relationship people have with SVS, I can see where people might get tired of the extreme enthusiasm of the SVS supporters. I replaced a Mirage BP 150i with an SVS PC Ultra and I have to say that to my ears at least, the PC Ultra is quite a good match with my Aerius i's. It sounds wonderful with music and amazing with movies. I do about 50:50 music and movies. Knowing what I hear with movies, I would not trade that extension for what I would perceive as a slight increase in musicallity with other subs. Would a Depth or a Decent sound better for music? Probably, (though I imagine the difference would be subtle rather than nght and day) but both of those costs considerably more than the PC Ultra.

The point I wanted to make is that when it comes to subwoofers you really do need to hear them in your space. Martin Logan makes some really good subwoofers in the Depth and the Descent. So does Velodyne, especially the DD series. The internet only companies SVS, Hsu, ACI, Axiom also make good products. I went through reading as many opinions as I could and was nearly paralyzed into inaction by the rhetoric that was flying about. In the end, low bass output, as measured by people such as AV-Talk seemed to be the parameter that provided some differnentiation of the capabilities of the different subwoofers. That, plus the fact that I live about 1 hour away from SVS, helped me make a decision that I have no second thoughts about.

Listen and decide.

Chuck

 

[Tiberium]

Regarding the Bag End’s 8Hz bass extension, don’t get too excited about that. Bag End is the first to admit that there is nothing to hear that low and nothing to feel. In fact, the Infrasub-18 isn’t incapable of putting out a high enough SPL at that low a frequency to be meaningful. "So why bother?" you may ask. Well, Bag End figures that if the sub extends well to 8Hz then it will have enough headroom a full octave up the scale to handle a 16Hz pipe-organ fundamental.

I would say that bag end says 8Hz to jazz up their products and nothing more.

 

[DTB300]

I would say that bag end says 8Hz to jazz up their products and nothing more.

Hyped Marketing - not untrue or false...just hyped....Unfortunately it is a disease that run rampid throughout the audio industry. This is where we as a consumer must decide on the sound of a component rather than the hype either from the industry, reviews, or forums.

Dan

 

[tsd2005]

I would say that bag end says 8Hz to jazz up their products and nothing more.

Wrong. You can put a test disc in your player. You can watch the Driver work with an 8HZ signal.

It's the only Sub I know that will do that. In terms of how low a sub can go, no body goes lower than Bag End. Does it create some of the most ACCURATE sounding bass I've ever heard? YES.

Did the SVS? NO. Did the SVS go low? YES.

I don't HATE SVS. That is a strong word. If someone has less than $500 to spend on a sub, they should look no further than Outlaw or SVS. They will get the best money can buy in those price areas. They may even make the best subs money can buy for under a grand. It is very possible.

However they don't make product that can compete with a Descent or Bag End in pure articulate FAST RESPONSE bass. There is a reason the Descent and Bag Ends cost what they do. You pay for fast subs.

I personally have never understood the love of the DD series. Its another internet hype thing that has never once stood up to my ears, or any ears of people who are willing to compare subs with me.

When it comes to subs I really think that Martin Logan may make the best sub you can buy. Bag End isn't far behind, but I've not heard their answer to the Descent in its price range. The Infra-18 I own does things I know other subs can't. It makes every bass instrument sound as realistic as I've ever heard them in my system. That to me says something. I've also TESTED it and measured it at 8HZ. Does that mean anything? I don't know. What I do know is that it makes a more accurate BASS SOUND than any other sub I've had in my system with the exception of the Descent. We're talking about literally over 40 subs more than likely.

 

[Tiberium]

Wrong. You can put a test disc in your player. You can watch the Driver work with an 8HZ signal.

I've also TESTED it and measured it at 8HZ.

Did you read the link or anything that I quoted?

Regarding the Bag End’s 8Hz bass extension, don’t get too excited about that. Bag End is the first to admit that there is nothing to hear that low and nothing to feel. In fact, the Infrasub-18 isn’t incapable of putting out a high enough SPL at that low a frequency to be meaningful. "So why bother?" you may ask. Well, Bag End figures that if the sub extends well to 8Hz then it will have enough headroom a full octave up the scale to handle a 16Hz pipe-organ fundamental. But, just for fun, I pulled out some Telarc CDs with content down to 5Hz. As expected, I could neither feel nor hear anything that low, but I confess that it was fun to watch the woofer cone gyrate at that low a frequency. It wasn’t, but it looked as though it was completely out of control. It’s not very often that you get an opportunity to witness such a spectacle!

Which says what? Most subwoofer manufacturers cut off the subsonic frequencies because they are very hard on the driver, the THD sky rockets, and if the driver can hit that low it would be at -20db. So why bother going that low if it does not matter?

However they don't make product that can compete with a Descent or Bag End in pure articulate FAST RESPONSE bass.

I personally have never understood the love of the DD series. Its another internet hype thing that has never once stood up to my ears, or any ears of people who are willing to compare subs with me.

What I do know is that it makes a more accurate BASS SOUND than any other sub I've had in my system with the exception of the Descent.

Well that is your opinion I personally think that the velodyne DD-18 slaps around both those subs and a danley sounds DTS-20 will beat out a DD-18.

 

[DTB300]

Which says what? Most subwoofer manufacturers cut off the subsonic frequencies because they are very hard on the driver, the THD sky rockets, and if the driver can hit that low it would be at -20db. So why bother going that low if it does not matter?

Becuase the uninformed buyer will just look at marketing stuff and go "WHOA!!! - 8Hz - amazing!!!"

Again, marketing, and as long as it is not false marketing, it does help sell products.

For those of us who are in the know and realize it is just marketing and listening to it is the real information, will benefit the most.

But stuff still gets purchases "ears unheard" (like sight-unseen) based on figures, marketing, and what others out in forums say about it.

Dan

 

[Tiberium]

Becuase the uninformed buyer will just look at marketing stuff and go "WHOA!!! - 8Hz - amazing!!!"

Again, marketing, and as long as it is not false marketing, it does help sell products.

You are correct which is why bose sells so well. Bag end does not lie about the 8Hz figure but I see it as irrelevant.

But stuff still gets purchases "ears unheard" (like sight-unseen) based on figures, marketing, and what others out in forums say about it.

Sad but true.

 

[DTB300]

You are correct which is why bose sells so well. Bag end does not lie about the 8Hz figure but I see it as irrelevant.

Yes, but you will notice that even though they report 8Hz response, Bag End is the first to admit there is nothing to hear that low and nothing to feel. It does not put out enough SPL at the low frequence to be meaningful. But Bag End figures that if the sub extends well to 8Hz then it will have enough headroom a full octove up (16Hz).

This to me is honest marketing and not trying to pull a fast one. But if someone did not read about the claims and testing, they would just figure it could go down that low and play loudly. I guess you could say you have to read the "fine print"!!! Ha Ha...

From what I have read from multiple reports the best the Bag End can do is around 103dB - which for me is PLENTY loud enough. I am no longer a "Ted Nuggent" volume level freak with high 80's as LOUD listening sessions. If this sub is as musical as all the reports state, it would fit my needs just fine. And that is what others have to consider too - what are their needs, preferences and desires for their music.

Is the Bag End better than Velodyne, SVS, ACI, ML or whoever? That is up to each of us to decide by listening to them and forget all the hype.

Dan

 

[Taz]

Wrong. You can put a test disc in your player. You can watch the Driver work with an 8HZ signal.

It's the only Sub I know that will do that. In terms of how low a sub can go, no body goes lower than Bag End. Does it create some of the most ACCURATE sounding bass I've ever heard? YES.

Did the SVS? NO. Did the SVS go low? YES.

I don't HATE SVS. That is a strong word. If someone has less than $500 to spend on a sub, they should look no further than Outlaw or SVS. They will get the best money can buy in those price areas. They may even make the best subs money can buy for under a grand. It is very possible.

However they don't make product that can compete with a Descent or Bag End in pure articulate FAST RESPONSE bass. There is a reason the Descent and Bag Ends cost what they do. You pay for fast subs.

I personally have never understood the love of the DD series. Its another internet hype thing that has never once stood up to my ears, or any ears of people who are willing to compare subs with me.

When it comes to subs I really think that Martin Logan may make the best sub you can buy. Bag End isn't far behind, but I've not heard their answer to the Descent in its price range. The Infra-18 I own does things I know other subs can't. It makes every bass instrument sound as realistic as I've ever heard them in my system. That to me says something. I've also TESTED it and measured it at 8HZ. Does that mean anything? I don't know. What I do know is that it makes a more accurate BASS SOUND than any other sub I've had in my system with the exception of the Descent. We're talking about literally over 40 subs more than likely.

Have you heard the SVS PB12-Ultra2 IMHO this sub will compete with some of the best including the ML. I have not heard the Bag end but I have owned 2 ML's and have listen to a few Velo. It boils down to personal preferance but I would not count the SVS out.

 

[Tiberium]

But Bag End figures that if the sub extends well to 8Hz then it will have enough headroom a full octove up (16Hz).

Does bag end have any information to back this up? 16Hz is 16Hz and either the product can go that low or it can't, I am just using logic here. Velodyne in their new firmware upgrade to the SMS-1 added the option of a 5Hz cut off so does that mean any sub can "play" a 5Hz signal? If you send that signal to a sub any sub will play it but some might do it at -30db but it does not mean anything.

 

[DTB300]

Velodyne in their new firmware upgrade to the SMS-1 added the option of a 5Hz cut off so does that mean any sub can "play" a 5Hz signal?

This was driven by IB and SVS users.

The SVS users said their sub can be tuned to 12Hz so the cutoff at 15 was depriving them of using their subs to their fullest Yep, replacing that missing 3Hz was a world of difference....

Dan

 

[tsd2005]

So does Bag End make a sub that goes down to 8HZ because they really believe it makes it sound better recreating 16HZ, or because of marketing?

I don't believe it is marketing, because if anything Bag End is horrible at marketing. Bag End is primarily a brand that sells in the Professional market and has a firm grip on selling subs to studios. So they don't have a good hold on the Home Market.

I expect they believe it helps with the sound. I just know its one of the most musical subs you can buy.