Amp Question

[Petden]

So I am new to this forum and new to high-end sound systems, however I know what sounds good to me. I am thinking of surprising my dad on his 50th birthday with a pair of ML Vista's, the Matinee center, and rears which have yet TBD. He bought the Yamaha RX-V1800 about a year ago for a blowout price and I was wondering if this amp could power those three 4ohm speakers and not give out on him. Also if it turns out that the amp has to be replaced to say a DSP Z7 or something like that I wouldnt be able to afford the ML

I have read into this quite a bit and it seems that this amp can power three 4ohm speakers quite easily, it just gets a little warm. But have also read that the rears would have to be 8ohms in a scenario like this. Any info would be much appreciated.

Peter

 

[Hocky]

It probably would "work," but certainly wouldn't sound as best as it could. Remember that those 4 ohm speakers are swinging to 1 ohm.

 

[Rich]

The simple answer is no. This receiver is incapable of powering the Vistas to their ability levels. Sound will come out, but it won't be good sound. You would probably do better to stick with ML's Motion series speakers for this application.

 

[Petden]

So then here's another question. Would they, at this "lower quality" sound better than say the Energy RC-70's.

Just some more background info, I work at Best Buy so I get a crazy discount on the ML's and any speaker that Futureshop sells. So I am limited to what I can purchase. Maybe in the next few years I'll convince him to upgrade his reciever to a higher end one but for now he will stick to this one.

 

[GaryG]

Peter, the short answer is yes the RX-V1800 will drive the vistas and they will sound OK. By all means surprise your dad with the ML's. I am 58 and have no children but if I did, what a delight it would be if one of them surprised me with a pair of ML's.

Peter, the long answer is a little more complicated. I have listened extensively to the RX-V1800 at a friends house (driving EPOS) and it is a good receiver. I have a pair of Aeon i's that float into several different systems. The Vistas are newer, better and a little more sensitive than my Aeon i's but the conclusions should be similar. When I had the Aeon's on a Harmon Kardon HK3470 receiver rated at 100 wpc they almost sounded OK. When I went to a Proceed BPA Dual Mono rated at 125 watts continuous the Aeon i's were OK. Up it to the Proceed HPA 3 at 250 watts and they sounded really good. Recently my Prodigy's were down with a repair to the high-pass and the Aeon's stepped into the slot with Bryston 7B-SST's rated at 600 watts into 8 ohms, 900 watts @ 4 ohms and I was shocked at how great the Aeon i's were. However, I had to hide the remote from myself or some ML circuits would have been smoking.

Later, on his 52nd birthday you can buy him some bigger amps and he can use the Yamaha as a controller. Good luck.

 

[robertawillisjr]

So then here's another question. Would they, at this "lower quality" sound better than say the Energy RC-70's.

Just some more background info, I work at Best Buy so I get a crazy discount on the ML's and any speaker that Futureshop sells. So I am limited to what I can purchase. Maybe in the next few years I'll convince him to upgrade his reciever to a higher end one but for now he will stick to this one.

Well if you are planning for an upgrade to the receiver, the Vista would be a high quality foundation. Since you are working at the store why don't you bring the receiver in and test it on the various ML speakers.

 

[twich54]

Well if you are planning for an upgrade to the receiver, the Vista would be a high quality foundation. Since you are working at the store why don't you bring the receiver in and test it on the various ML speakers.

I agree with Robert........... 'a house always starts with a good foundation' !!

 

[Rich]

So then here's another question. Would they, at this "lower quality" sound better than say the Energy RC-70's.

Can't answer that as I have never heard the RC-70's. I don't believe the Vistas will sound good powered by this receiver. I used to power my Ascents with a similar Yamaha receiver and they sounded very harsh and shrill. Only after I upgraded to decent separates did they sound anywhere close to how they should sound. The Vistas go down to 1.2 ohms at 20 khz, and the amp must power the electrostatic panel as well as the woofer. It really isn't up to the task, especially if having to drive a center and surround speakers at the same time.

Questions: Is this more for movie soundtracks or more for music listening? Is your dad really into hi fidelity? Or does he just want a rockin' system to watch tv and movies with? The answers to these questions should be able to direct your purchases a little.

 

[twich54]

Rich, even though his dad is 6 years younger than I, I doubt very much if he could hear anything @ 20k hz, with that being said there is little music there anyways, trouble is if an amp 'strain' to produce such a signal the distortion then becomes audible at a lower freq

 

[TomD]

Peter - When i first got the Aeon i they were driven by a Yamaha rated at 125 W @ 8 ohms. I do not remember what it was at 4 ohms but it was not double and so was not a high current amp as is best for these speakers. Still, i thought that they sounded real nice.

I quickly went to a more powerful Carver using the Y as a preamp and to drive the center and rears. Having increased power seemed to give the speakers more range, but the Y was nothing to complain about.

As said above, its a great idea to set a firm foundation. Equipment will come if you truly enjoy the sound. IMHO, if you use the Yamaha you will enjoy the sound; but know that the sound can be much improved.

One thing, check to make sure that the rear amp can be set to a different Ohm rating to drive the 8 Ohm speakers while simultaneously driving 4 Ohm speakers. I thought that mixing Ohm-rated speakers could be a problem and am not sure why you state that one pair needs to be 8 Ohms.

Also, the speakers do draw lot of current when they take those 1 Ohm high-resistant plunges. However, such states are transient and i believe that it may not be a problem for the Y. I am sure someone will correct me about this if need be.

BTW, you must be an awesome son to get your dad such a fine setup.

 

[Len44]

Rich, even though his dad is 6 years younger than I, I doubt very much if he could hear anything @ 20k hz, with that being said there is little music there anyways, trouble is if an amp 'strain' to produce such a signal the distortion then becomes audible at a lower freq

Good points. Don't want the amp to strain.

As an aside, I should also comment on the quality of many of the Yamaha amplifiers. While I am unfamiliar with the RX-V1800, the Yamaha equipment I have owned (and still do, for that matter) proved most satisfying, including with my MLs (Aeon i, Ascent i, Summits). These included the DSP-AZ1, CX / MX-1000, and then the CX / MX-2000. While I have since moved on to other amplification, these were all excellent amps -- especially the MX-2000.

All this to say, I would not be put off by a quality Yamaha unit. But of course, as they say, YMMV...

 

[Thai]

For the past 4 years, i have been running my system (see signature) on a Denon 4306. I did just fine. Of course, i am getting a Sunfire amp next week...so, i can't do an A/B comparo for you. But, i had no issues with the denon driving my Vantages and Stage (along with the surrounds)...no overheating, no clipping.

 

[Rich]

Rich, even though his dad is 6 years younger than I, I doubt very much if he could hear anything @ 20k hz, with that being said there is little music there anyways, trouble is if an amp 'strain' to produce such a signal the distortion then becomes audible at a lower freq

Hi Dave. Yeah, I wasn't referring so much to the loss of high frequencies so much as the strain on the amp and resulting distortion. 1.2 Ohms is approaching a dead short. The strain produced on the amp trying to run Vistas, as well as a center and surrounds, especially if pushed to higher volumes, is likely to result in some very unpleasant sound. As I said, my experience with a similar setup was that the sound was very harsh, shrill and edgy. Not enjoyable. Yamaha gives very little information on the actual power specs of this receiver, and the reviews I have read don't mention its power capabilities at all. Bad sign.

A lot will depend on his father's needs for the system, and his likeliness to upgrade the amplification in the near future. If his father wants to listen to music, and is unlikely to upgrade the amp part of the system (he could keep the Yamaha as a pre and center/surround amp and just add an outboard amp for the Vistas), then I think Petden would be better off going with some highly efficient conventional home theater speakers. I know we all love our Logans, but they aren't for everyone or for every situation.

 

[Bernard]

Questions: Is this more for movie soundtracks or more for music listening? Is your dad really into hi fidelity? Or does he just want a rockin' system to watch tv and movies with? The answers to these questions should be able to direct your purchases a little.

Excellent point. This should be the determining factor. If he is into high fidelity just get him the Vistas and give him the extra cash you are planning to spend for an amplifier upgrade. Of course, I'm speaking from the point of view of a 2-channel guy.

 

[Nielsen]

I may be weird, but I would never drive MLs with a receiver. Yamaha is not the worst by all means, but the preamp quality in many receivers really suck for stereo use and the power amp specs are blown way out of proportion with many brands and doesnt reflect the ability to drive a real world speaker load.
I would swap the rear and center channel speakers for a nice power amp to compliment the Vistas, Rogue90, Bryston or Plinius just to mention a few.
Hook that up to the Pre Out Front outputs of the receiver and you are in business.

 

[Thai]

I may be weird, but I would never drive MLs with a receiver. Yamaha is not the worst by all means, but the preamp quality in many receivers really suck for stereo use and the power amp specs are blown way out of proportion with many brands and doesnt reflect the ability to drive a real world speaker load.
I would swap the rear and center channel speakers for a nice power amp to compliment the Vistas, Rogue90, Bryston or Plinius just to mention a few.
Hook that up to the Pre Out Front outputs of the receiver and you are in business.

Not sure about the Yamaha, but my Denon 4306 pre-amp section is supposedly pretty good: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/denon-avr-4306/avr-4306-measurements-and-analysis

I am planning on using my Denon as the pre-amp and hook it up to my incoming Sunfire amp. The nice thing about using my Denon (or Yamaha) as a pre-amp is all the features that it has, e.g. room correction with Audyssey, HDMI, etc.. Only now do you see the high end pre-amps having these features. So, although the separate pre-amps are nice, they lag behind the AVR's in features. And if the AVR has a nice pre-amp section, then it is just icing on the cake.

 

[robertawillisjr]

Not sure about the Yamaha, but my Denon 4306 pre-amp section is supposedly pretty good: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/denon-avr-4306/avr-4306-measurements-and-analysis

I am planning on using my Denon as the pre-amp and hook it up to my incoming Sunfire amp. The nice thing about using my Denon (or Yamaha) as a pre-amp is all the features that it has, e.g. room correction with Audyssey, HDMI, etc.. Only now do you see the high end pre-amps having these features. So, although the separate pre-amps are nice, they lag behind the AVR's in features. And if the AVR has a nice pre-amp section, then it is just icing on the cake.

They may lag in features but they are usually way ahead for SQ. I predict that you will eventually "see the power of the force" :music:

 

[Thai]

They may lag in features but they are usually way ahead for SQ. I predict that you will eventually "see the power of the force" :music:

You know what...it will not surprise me if that happens...and strangely, it will not surprise my wife either!

 

[JRace]

I have used my Denon 4308 as both a pre (with Bryston 9BSST2) and power amp to run a pair of Vista's with Stage and Descent i. Sure it runs out of steam before the Bryston did, and there is not the same detail and sq at low-mid volumes, but it is more than capable. Even running a pair of Thiel MSC1's on the rears (4ohms) did not cause any issue with the Denon even with multi-channel music.

(So that is 5 4 0hm speakers, all known to be current hungry speakers)

And to make matters worse the AVR is in a small cabinet with a HTPC.

Even under these torturous conditions the unit was able to pipe Melvins and some hard Electronica stuff (M.I.A. , Nightmares on Wax) last night for a long listening session without going into thermal.

For sure adding a beefy amp makes things better...but on its own I am quite pleased with the Denon.

You have a lucky dad!

 

[MOON]

As Rich and others have said, the Yamaha receiver won't come close to showing off the attributes of the Vista's. However, I am sure your dad would be very happy to get the speakers and it would be a moment both of you would cherish for a long time.

I run 2 channel all the time for music and watching movies ( 1080 projector & 92 inch screen ) My take on it is if the 2 channel is done properly, there is no need for the surround sound gimickery.No one has ever complained about the sound while watching a movie here.

Maybe, if you just get a good pre and amp at a later date hooked to the Vista's , you would be quite surprised.

Cheers, Greg