Rocky Mountain Audio Fest 2008

MiTT said:

This room included the smallest of the Von Schweikerts at the show - the Unifield 3's at $15K. They use the same tweeter as the giant VR7's that are in a different portion of the hotel (I confirmed this with Dr. Von Schweikert himself, a very nice guy to talk to by the way). The show is the world premiere for the Unifield 3's and they sounded excellent paired with the Audio Space 300B based pre-amp and 300B/805 based monoblocks. "Keith Don't Go" from Nils Lofgren's Live Acoustic was simply awesome with a huge deep soundstage, great clarity and wonderfull bass extension. Very, very good room.

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This was one of my favorite rooms.

MiTT said:

This room included the smallest of the Von Schweikerts at the show - the Unifield 3's at $15K. They use the same tweeter as the giant VR7's that are in a different portion of the hotel (I confirmed this with Dr. Von Schweikert himself, a very nice guy to talk to by the way). The show is the world premiere for the Unifield 3's and they sounded excellent paired with the Audio Space 300B based pre-amp and 300B/805 based monoblocks. "Keith Don't Go" from Nils Lofgren's Live Acoustic was simply awesome with a huge deep soundstage, great clarity and wonderfull bass extension. Very, very good room.

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This was one of my favorite rooms. (Post 28) Though not the best Von Schweikerts, actually they were the least expensive ones I saw at the show. There was great synergy with the equipment in this room and the sound was very good indeed.

MiTT said:

I have to give Daedalus Audio credit. When I first heard their speakers four years ago I didn't care for them at all, but they keep coming back every year, and they keep sounding better every year. These Reference Series examples are very dynamic, have wonderful timbres especially on acoustic instruments and the woodwork on the cabinets is flawless. The big Manley 250 monoblocks looked and sounded great in this room. Apparently Manley and Art Audio are somehow tied together now because when I was talking to the main guy from Art Audio he said that he specifically recommended these amps to Daedalus and Art Audio is mentioned in the program as the amplifier in this room. Hmmmm?

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Funny story regarding this room. (Post 104) While talking to the builder of the speakers outside of the room, he introduced me to Wilson Shen, the designer of some Clayton Audio amps. Wilson then told me that if I wanted to hear the Daedalus sound better, to come with him down the hall to another room. So I went and sure enough, there was another pair of the speakers, only this time powered by his amps. Now, I can't say for sure the sound was any better, as the music was different, but what is intriguing is what Wilson told me. He said that after the rooms were closed to the public, they would unplug the Manley monos in the other room and hook his up for their own listening because the sound was superior. They hid his amps behind the Manley's, against the wall.

Tim,

Many thanks (again) for a great reporting job ! It was great fun to participate in the show with you, Steve, Erik, Seth and Joe. As for the "Loganites" that were there shame we couldn't hook up...maybe next year.

Also thanks to you Sandy for hosting our fri nite get together, you realize that after we all went down stairs to counsel you on your room set-up that "we" now have first dibs on a listening session when it's complete !!

Myself a rookie this year at the show trully enjoyed it and look forward future RMAF's !

twich54 said:

Tim,

Many thanks (again) for a great reporting job ! It was great fun to participate in the show with you, Steve, Erik, Seth and Joe. As for the "Loganites" that were there shame we couldn't hook up...maybe next year.

Also thanks to you Sandy for hosting our fri nite get together, you realize that after we all went down stairs to counsel you on your room set-up that "we" now have first dibs on a listening session when it's complete !!

Myself a rookie this year at the show trully enjoyed it and look forward future RMAF's !

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Couldn't have said it better! Tim, do you think you'll have the room finished by next RMAF?

Tim,

You outdid yourself with your wonderful reviews and pictures of the audio gear (my thread seems rather weak by comparison :bowdown.

I didn't get to listen to nearly as many rooms as Tim, but what I did listen to was most impressive. These dealers and speaker companies (electronics folks, too) sure don't make it easy. I now see, at least in part, how tough Jeff's (tonepub) can be!

I suppose my top selections, in no particular order, would be (from this thread):


Sanders (#3)

Lansche (#54)

Von Schweikert VR-5 (#63)

Classic Audio Production (#94)

Gershman Acoutsics (#125) --- maybe my favorite at the RMAF



Best in Show goes to the Focal Room. No question about it. This was easily the most well attended room either because of the price of the electronics in it, or because they were indeed the best sounding speakers at the RMAF. People were even applauding after some of the tracks were over. Yes, the experience was that moving.

Having said that, the MBL speakers (at 1/3 the price) were no slouch. They easily filled the room with sound. I was very impressed!

As I said before, Tim (and everyone else) didn't see everything. In most cases we didn't get to listen to our own music through these systems. And in nearly all cases, the rooms were small and untreated. While the dealers went through a lot of trouble to get the room properly set up, it goes without saying that every one of these systems could only get better in larger (and maybe treated) rooms.

I was blown away at the number of vinyl players and tube amps (and pre-amps) in many of the rooms. You also saw a lot of computers and digital transports/players. You saw many combinations of "old" and new technology. There was something for everyone. Even though we live in a digital era, the analog technology is still very much firmly entrenched in this hobby and for good reason. When done right, it sounds great! The digital media also sounded awesome. We listened to many, many systems with Class D amps and CD players.

Tim, Steve, Dave, Seth, and I are all in agreement that some of the smaller, bookshelf/monitors, seem to represent tremendous value versus other speakers costing 10 or 20 times as much.

In closing, if any of you were on the fence regarding the RMAF - GO NEXT YEAR! It's great to be around so many people that love this hobby. There's no pressure to buy a thing. You can hop from room to room and enjoy the music for hours on end. The hotels were great, and Denver is a terrific town to visit. A lot of people were a little put off by ML not being there, but this show has so much to offer.

Tim, I'll once again echo everyone's thoughts regarding your hospitality. Thanks for having us over!!

I am already thinking about the RMAF in 2009!!!

MiTT said:

No, I'm just a music nut and I have a problem...

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Problem? Check out my 211 army... they are coming to take over. Problem? Me? Nah...:ROFL:

Anyway, great report, Tim. Better than (EDIT: this said "thank" - what a typo! Embarassed - sure!) my HK report, to be honest. Really enjoyed it.

BTW: which tube to topple?

Just FYI, Jason Jones of Jones Audio is the person who designed our diffusion products. If you need to get hold of him for any information on the Jones Audio products, let me know and I can put you in touch with him.

Bryan

theWB said:

Tim,
Problem, What Problem?

Crack addiction is a problem.

Though my "Problem" is no where near the size of yours. My "Problem's" getting larger almost everyday.

This week while on vacation I built these shelfs in my basement to house my "Problem". Spent just under $200 on material. Much more cost effect than buying a premade rack. Took just a few hours to build

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User211 said:

Problem? Check out my 211 army... they are coming to take over. Problem? Me? Nah...:ROFL:

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Wayne, great shelves; here's to you continuing to fill them!

Justin, nice set of tubes!

I totally, completely get the collecting portion of this hobby. My wife doesn't get it at all. Still, as you said Wayne, a "problem" would be crack or booze, or hookers etc. I'm just a music hoarder. Whitness my "take" from the RMAF last weekend! I'm just barely cracking it all open a week later. Many, many hours of pleasure lay in wake for me here.

Ah! Radiohead - The Bends - Just - partially named after me

Check this video for it - then lie down!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5X7HKxpiQA

Yeah Just-in, when I saw it I just had to get both "the Bends" and "Hail to the Thief". My Radiohead on vinyl collection is now complete. I think my favorite tune on "The Bends" is "High and Dry", but it's one of those albums where EVERY song is great.

Tigerlilly is a great album!

MiTT said:

That's pretty much the bulk of what I saw and heard at the show that was worth reporting. To be sure there was a ton more, and there was a whole lot (like the entire Hyatt hotel) that I missed, but hopefully you got a flavor of what I experienced at this years show. I'm hoping Dave, Erik, Steve and others here present that were able to attend will jump in with more of their comments either reaffirming what I heard and saw or telling me that I'm full of $hit!

So here's a summary of some of my impressions:

Best Rooms for music:music:

• Highwater Sound (Post #91)
• Antique Sound Labs and Ref 3A (Post #105)
• Jones Audio (Post #107)
• True Sound Works (Apogee) (Post #35)

Biggest Suprizes

• Jones Audio (Post#107)
• True Soundworks (Apogee) (Post #35)
• YG Acoustics (Post #43) - still not up to the hype, but showing promise

Biggest Disappointments

• "Crap Audio" Chiminera speakers (Post #101)
• Waterfall (Post #29)
• Martin Logan - just because they weren't there!

Best Value

• ACI Sapphires (Post #55)
• Peachtree decco (Post #?)
• ASL Hurricanes and Ref 3A Grand Veena's (Post #105)

Best Sound of Show (and I'm cheating with some ties) :bowdown:

#10 - Von Schweikert Unifield 3's with Audio Space amps (Post #28)
#9 - Rowland and Vienna Acoustics (Post #9)
#8 - Sanders (Post #3) -tie- YG Acoustics (Post #43)
#7 - Merlin and Joule Electra (Posts # 39 & 41) -tie- Marten and Lamm (Post #146)
#6 - Gershman Black Swans & VAC (Post #125) -tie- Analysis Audio & VTL (Post #44)
#5 - Wavac & Lansche (Post #54) -tie- Symposium & Emotive Audio (Post #21)
#4 - Von Schweikert VR-7 and VAC (Post #72)
#3 - Avalon & VTL (Post #137) -tie- Antique Sound Labs & Ref 3A Grand Veena's (Post #105)
#2 - mbl (Post #160)

#1 Best Sound of the Show - Focal Grand Utopia EM/Boulder/Clearaudio (Posts #48, #67 & #68)

Of course all of the above is my own highly biased opinion. I hope you all get the chance to come form your own next year!

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Tim,

Thanks for the great coverage again! I think this thread definitely blows away the Stereophile coverage.

A couple of questions for you:

- How similar/ different were the rooms? Did the participants say anything about room limitations? Do you think your rankings would change if the rooms were up to par?
- Did you get the sense that for the most part the speakers and electronics were best matched with each to make the ultimate system, or was it based on politics and relationships?
- Is a show like this, with its scale, pretty much the only rational way to select a truly high-end system?

Thanks!

Tim's answers may be different than mine, but I figure I might as well give my opinions!

David Matz said:

- How similar/ different were the rooms?

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There was quite a variety of rooms! The majority of the exhibits were in standard guest rooms, so many of them were very similar, but not all of them were the same type of room, and even rooms of the same type weren't necessarily 100% identical. Then, the very best systems were in much larger rooms, and then there were some other various things in large rooms.

David Matz said:

Did the participants say anything about room limitations? Do you think your rankings would change if the rooms were up to par?

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Most exhibitors did not say anything about the room, and some of those that did (especially in the larger rooms) actually said the rooms weren't all that bad. I personally have come to the opinion that unless a room's acoustics are absolutely terrible, you can still get a pretty good sense for the quality of the speakers. Moreover, in this show, comparable speakers for the most part were in comparable rooms, so I doubt the rankings would have changed much (if at all) under different circumstances.

David Matz said:

- Did you get the sense that for the most part the speakers and electronics were best matched with each to make the ultimate system, or was it based on politics and relationships?

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There is no way you could tell this for sure without trying different pairings, but pretty much nothing was paired with low end stuff. Except for things that were intended to be very inexpensive, almost everything was paired with cables and electronics at least as high (if not higher) than an owner would be likely to pair it with. This scaled all the way up, as the very best speakers were paired with absolute top of the line amps, cables, etc. There were probably some politics behind the scenes, but I didn't think there were any good systems compromised by poor pairings.

David Matz said:

- Is a show like this, with its scale, pretty much the only rational way to select a truly high-end system?

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Yes and no. There is so much out there, and a lot of it is extremely high quality, but I think it would be hard to trust your ears enough to make a huge purchase just listening once or twice (particularly with unknown brands). Plus, if you weren't planning on pairing with the same electronics as the exhibitors did, you wouldn't get a good sense for what it would sound like when you got it home. This would be an especially big problem if you weren't going to spend that much on stuff. For example, there were some rooms that had like $4000 speakers hooked up with cables that totaled at least that much. While it is hard to say how much actual improvement comes from more expensive cables, my guess is most people spend much more on their speakers than their cables.
However, if you wanted very top end stuff, there were at least a couple of systems that I would strongly have considered buying "as is" if I had an insanely large budget.

Feltran said:

Yes and no. There is so much out there, and a lot of it is extremely high quality, but I think it would be hard to trust your ears enough to make a huge purchase just listening once or twice (particularly with unknown brands). Plus, if you weren't planning on pairing with the same electronics as the exhibitors did, you wouldn't get a good sense for what it would sound like when you got it home. This would be an especially big problem if you weren't going to spend that much on stuff. For example, there were some rooms that had like $4000 speakers hooked up with cables that totaled at least that much. While it is hard to say how much actual improvement comes from more expensive cables, my guess is most people spend much more on their speakers than their cables.
However, if you wanted very top end stuff, there were at least a couple of systems that I would strongly have considered buying "as is" if I had an insanely large budget.

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I am thinking if I were to start shopping for a high end system - not just speakers - RMAF is the place to start. Otherwise, one would have to fly across the country from dealer to dealer to listen. Once one narrows down what they like and their price points, one can then start doing home auditions, if they are fortunate enough to have a dealer near by.

I 100% agree with the "go to shows" idea. That's how I have arrived, for the most part, with what I have today.

I find that after leaving a show, I am usually left with some strong impressions as to what I like. When these thoughts last for months, you know you have heard something you "need". But you also get an idea of what works together in your own mind, in a broad sense.

For instance, you can decide which "camp" you broadly belong in - low power tube amps with high efficiency paper cone speakers. Low power tube amps with horns. High power solid state amps with very large dynamic speakers. ESLs with whatever you prefer with them - class D, tube, SS.

I believe it is these broad areas that you need to decide on. Then chose whatever you can afford within your "camp" and see if it works - whether from dealer demo or 2nd hand purchase. If local dealers don't stock what you want, go for the 2nd hand option, then sell on if you don't get on with it.

If you take this advice, you will end up with a system that you really like, and not what some reviewer says is good. If you read reviews and buy individual new components based on them in the hope of building up a system, expect to spend a lot and end up unhappy - unless you are very lucky

Building up a great system that you like takes time and experience - and not necessairily huge amounts of cash - though that will help if you spend it wisely. That's the main point, really. Spend is wisely based on what you have heard. If you don't make the effort to go out and explore, you will never know what you may be missing!

Oh one more thing - use reviews to build up shortlists, by all means, but never buy based soley on them if you can, or if you do get it 2nd hand so you don't lose too much on re-sale if you don't like it.

Show environments can be terribly unpredictable. Generally you can get an idea of things to help narrow the field.

On the other hand, I've heard things that sounded pretty bad under show conditions that I personally knew via audition in my system or a system owned by someone I knew and was very familiar with sounded very good.

Bryan

User211 said:

Problem? Check out my 211 army... they are coming to take over. Problem? Me? Nah...:ROFL:

BTW: which tube to topple?

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Justin,

That tube lying down made me think of a chess game, with the King conceding defeat.

In any given army, Bernard, some will fall...

The relatively boring truth, however, is that the pins on that particular RCA 211 are not all of even length.

I kinda thought after that shot I oughta sell some... but every now and then I like to swap 'em round, so I won't.

I was also thinking why would someone (i.e. me) buy so many if he was happy with the sound? Well, truth is I have always been an avid valve (I thought I'd say that for a change) roller... They all have their own personalities, you see, just like people.

When the amps go, so will the collection. They are not, however, for sale in the foreseeable future

Awesome coverage Mitt,

Did you get a chance to check out Rick Craig's "Symmetrica" line arrays?

MiTT said:

Channel Island was showing off their new D500 Mk II Class D amps - 500 watts as you might have guessed out of these monoblocks. I believe the guy in the room said that the speakers were AV123 1.6's, but I couldn't really her the guy over the music. Source was a Wadia i-Transport feeding the Channel Islands VDA.2 DAC.

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Speakers are AV123's LS6's, awesome speakers for the price.

MiTT said:

PS Audio was putting out sweet sounds thanks to a pair of Avalon Indra's supported by a PS Audio amplifier and a Power Station Premiere. The souce was in a completely different room and was made up of the "soon to be released" Perfect Wave Transport (top) and Ultralink DAC (bottom). One of them has to be controlling volume in the digital domain because there was no pre-amp in evidence. I believe that I'd heard each piece was going to be in the $2,500.00 neighborhood.

Music was from the Shelby Lynne tribute to Dusty Springfield (it was getting play everywhere), and the sound was great!

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PS Audio is shooting for a price point between $2000 & $2300, the ultralink has a volume control built in, so a pre-amp is not needed unless you just have to have one. They also have a new Digital lens, wireless bridge, & music server coming to the Ultra series.