Why doesn’t reproduced music sound like the real thing?

[Rich]

Maybe, but a live recording doesn't sound any better than any other recording, does it?

Most live amplified performances I have heard don't sound anywhere near as good as recordings I have of the same bands playing the same music. Just the other night I went and saw a friend of mine perform live with a great band. It was an awesome performance, but the sonics were not too spectacular. His CD of the same material sounds much better, although it does not sound "live" like the show did.

I think there is a disconnect in this argument between there being cues that told you it was a live performance vs. the music actually sounding great. Just because it sounds "live" does not necessarily mean it sounds "good." You state that this band playing through these tiny speakers sounded "amazing" but I have a hard time believing that. Sounded live, yes. But amazing? Through a p.a. system? I just don't buy it.

 

[Rich]

I never at any point said that it has to be as close to real as possible in order for us to enjoy it.

No, but you did say:

. . . the real thing is the only reference you will ever have, and the point of it all is to get as close to it as you possibly can . . .

My point is that I don't need that reference in order to evaluate and enjoy the quality of a recorded performance or to judge the capabilities of my gear. And given the elusive nature of audio memory, I would say that the idea of live music being a valid usable reference is a complete illusion to begin with.

 

[Bernard]

My point is that I don't need that reference in order to evaluate and enjoy the quality of a recorded performance or to judge the capabilities of my gear. And given the elusive nature of audio memory, I would say that the idea of live music being a valid usable reference is a complete illusion to begin with.

To me the reference serves to remind me what an instrument really sounds like. As an example, there is a sweet, rounded tone to violins that are captured only in Mercury recordings, and in none other; but I hear it live all the time. If you have not listened to a violin live you have no idea that it can sound like that, and when you do hear it, you appreciate it even more. Hence the need for a reference.

BTW what type of music do you listen to?

 

[C.A.P]

I don't use live music as a reference ! But,.... I like it as a whole. You CAN'T duplicate live sound. Especially amplified sound. Good Live or bad live, its being replayed through mixers and a bunch of amplifiers. Now Classical music is even harder to get right as its all about the cues and timing of the venue its played in. I have a lot of great recordings that take you there but its still NOT there. Its Like Rich has said, I like a good recording that is mixed well and sounds good to my ears. If I thought I was going to duplicate a hall or a club and its acoustics with a 2x 4 foot panel I would be fooling my self. What I can do is create a hall or venue of my own that I like in my listening room.

 

[David Matz]

To me the reference serves to remind me what an instrument really sounds like. As an example, there is a sweet, rounded tone to violins that are captured only in Mercury recordings, and in none other; but I hear it live all the time. If you have not listened to a violin live you have no idea that it can sound like that, and when you do hear it, you appreciate it even more. Hence the need for a reference.

Rich and Bernard,

To me, both of your points make sense. J. Gordon Holt's article makes this point by saying - get the best recording one can - good, bad, or ugly. Then let the listener decide what to listen for, how, and through which equipment.

 

[MiTT]

I don't use live music as a reference ! But,.... I like it as a whole. You CAN'T duplicate live sound. Especially amplified sound. Good Live or bad live, its being replayed through mixers and a bunch of amplifiers. Now Classical music is even harder to get right as its all about the cues and timing of the venue its played in. I have a lot of great recordings that take you there but its still NOT there. Its Like Rich has said, I like a good recording that is mixed well and sounds good to my ears. If I thought I was going to duplicate a hall or a club and its acoustics with a 2x 4 foot panel I would be fooling my self. What I can do is create a hall or venue of my own that I like in my listening room.

I think CAP has hit upon a real kernel of truth here. For a recorded presentation to sound even remotely like a live presentation in a given acoustic space I would think that the recorded presentation would have to be nothing but a direct mike feed played back into a similar (or identical) acoustic space. Only then could you really understand what effect the playback equipment is imparting to the presentation.

 

[risabet]

To me the reference serves to remind me what an instrument really sounds like. As an example, there is a sweet, rounded tone to violins that are captured only in Mercury recordings, and in none other; but I hear it live all the time. If you have not listened to a violin live you have no idea that it can sound like that, and when you do hear it, you appreciate it even more. Hence the need for a reference.

BTW what type of music do you listen to?

Exactly, it isn't that I require recorded sound to mimic live, as that is the road to madness, but the live reference informs me as to what certain instruments should sound like. The sound of the orchestral instruments is one with which I am quite familiar and as a former chorister I am familiar with the human voice, both massed and solo as a reference.

I've yet to have a system trick me into believing a chorus or orchestra is live, though some systems have done quite well with small groups of voices and instruments. For me the reference only lets me know what is possible. The fact that I can't duplicate the reference in no way detracts from my enjoyment of reproduced music.

 

[MiTT]

I've yet to have a system trick me into believing a chorus or orchestra is live, though some systems have done quite well with small groups of voices and instruments. For me the reference only lets me know what is possible. The fact that I can't duplicate the reference in no way detracts from my enjoyment of reproduced music.

I couldn't agree more, which is why I also go to listen to live music or stay home and listen to my system as my mood and pace of life permit. Both bring me a great deal of pleasure but in very different ways.

 

[ScottGardner]

Maybe, but a live recording doesn't sound any better than any other recording, does it?

In a way this brings us back to the original question. The short answer is: 'it depends'.

I'm staying out of the good vs. bad issue and trying to focus only on the differences.

I can't help thinking that given the limited capabilities of those tinny speakers; it should be possible to record/playback what was going directly to them and not be able to tell the difference.

 

[amey01]

I think there is a disconnect in this argument between there being cues that told you it was a live performance vs. the music actually sounding great.

Absolutely! It's just that all things being equal, I want good sound AND that live "magic".

I don't know about the PA system sounding "amazing" (my word - sorry), but it certainly had me looking up at the speakers wondering why they sounded so much better than normal!

 

[amey01]

.

I'm staying out of the good vs. bad issue and trying to focus only on the differences.

Me too - we all know there is good and bad of each.

What I'm trying to focus on is that there is a certain signature to EVERY live performance that is captured in NO recording. This, is what is interesting.

 

[amey01]

Just out of interest, has anyone experienced a live performance in their listening room?

When I lived in Sydney, a group of us took it in turns to have a jazz ensemble play at our houses. When it was my turn, they played in the listening room, set up between my speakers at the time, some Australian Sonique 5.5SE cone speakers driven my a Primare I21 integrated.

Not the same league as the system that graces my lounge room today - but it was the same room as my current Vistas have been in. Let's say it was illuminating in the very strongest sense of the word!

 

[Satch]

Amey01,

I have my guitar, electric bass, acoustic bass and amps set up in my listening room / living room. I'm working on getting my live sound to sound as good as the musicians on the records I'm playing on my stereo system. Sometimes I can come close, sometimes... not so much Had a good friend who is a very talented guitar player over last weekend. He plugged his Fender Stratocaster into my 50 watt tube amp and played some Hendrix riffs that was very close to the Band of Gypsys live album cranked up through my Vistas.

I'm new to the audiophile world but I've been playing live off and on for over 30 years. When musicians listen to my system they say "Damn, I want to sound like That!" Go figure...

Satch

 

[Liquisonic]

OK So I'm late to this thread

A Lot of the reason we musicians dread this "new economy" is that there are no
incentives for us to create music (that you would like) for all of you people craving really good recordings. I'll shorten this up: If you want to hear it, we will play...
Steve

 

[Rich]

A Lot of the reason we musicians dread this "new economy" is that there are no
incentives for us to create music (that you would like) for all of you people craving really good recordings. I'll shorten this up: If you want to hear it, we will play...
Steve

No incentives? WTF? What incentive did Renoir have to paint? What incentive did Mozart have to compose? Most artists I know like to make a buck off their efforts where they can, but that is rarely their primary incentive for creating art. They do it because of an inner desire to create something special, for themselves and to share with the world.

I have a friend who has been a musician his entire life. He puts out a CD every other year or so, not because it is earning him any real money, but because singing and songwriting is a huge part of his life. Sure, he would like to make a lot of money from it. But that isn't his incentive. His incentive is the desire to create and achieve and leave a lasting body of work that represents his own personal musical genius. That is all the incentive most artists need.

I'm not sure how this "new economy," as you put it, gives any less incentive for artists to create. In fact, there are more outlets for lesser known artists to distribute and market their work now than ever before. Ever heard of CD Baby? It is chock full of great work by independent artists who could never get a recording contract but manage to produce and sell their own music.

 

[FISH_MAN]

I think cd's or "black pizza" sound better than live rock or any other amplified
venue I have been to some that did sound very good but I prefer the sound of the recording in my home.but as far as a live orchestra in an accusticaly sound envirnment forget about it! your logan's I don't care if you have statements can not hold a candle to the real thing.they will never be a trumpet,violin,drums or a piano it just isnt possible and never will be.

that's just what I think sound is so subjective.

 

[David Matz]

No incentives? WTF? What incentive did Renoir have to paint? What incentive did Mozart have to compose? Most artists I know like to make a buck off their efforts where they can, but that is rarely their primary incentive for creating art. They do it because of an inner desire to create something special, for themselves and to share with the world.

I have a friend who has been a musician his entire life. He puts out a CD every other year or so, not because it is earning him any real money, but because singing and songwriting is a huge part of his life. Sure, he would like to make a lot of money from it. But that isn't his incentive. His incentive is the desire to create and achieve and leave a lasting body of work that represents his own personal musical genius. That is all the incentive most artists need.

I'm not sure how this "new economy," as you put it, gives any less incentive for artists to create. In fact, there are more outlets for lesser known artists to distribute and market their work now than ever before. Ever heard of CD Baby? It is chock full of great work by independent artists who could never get a recording contract but manage to produce and sell their own music.

With all respect, I think both of you guys are presenting anecdotal evidence. Both sides have excellent points - inspiration, marketing, distribution, competition, intellectual property, risk vs. reward, life/ career trade-offs, etc. These are just some of the factors in the equation, but which weigh more? A good economist can probably fairly easily create a study to dig into the actual data and determine the answer, if it hasn't already been done.

 

[David Matz]

Since I started this thread, I had the pleasure of hearing Peter McGrath of Wilson, who is also a respected audio engineer. Recorded music can never sound like live music, but it can sure be MUCH better if:

- The performance is properly miked
- dynamic transients are not damped to sound good in car stereos
- music recorded in 4 channel digital, like Blue ray, so that as much musical information is captured as possible from all sides of the hall and put on a medium that can hold a large volume of the captured information. (The redbook cd is a **** poor medium!)
- There is hope for good recordings of jazz and classical. Rock/pop is hopeless at this point

Also, as almost everyone on this board by now agrees, a well treated room is a most critical component. Room size makes a huge difference also. Moving my system from a small bedroom to a moderate/ large living room makes a huge difference in quality of spatial and musical information. It is a day and night difference.

 

[User211]

I've got mixed feelings about this one. I posted this a while ago, but it makes the point. Blow it onto a CD and play it loud.

http://www.filesavr.com/madeup_1

I absolutely guarantee you that if you play this loud through your Logans, it will sound much better than the original guitar does.

I've been thinking a lot about this. I think the reason is the amplification factor - it enables you to hear into detail that just in NOT prevalent when you are actually playing.

The guitar is a Gibson SJ200 Super Custom Cutaway - the best acoustic I have ever laid my hands on. It just blows away a standard J200 for sound - which I also used to own.

Don't worry I am not trying to promote my wares - I am just a casual player and don't take it too seriously.

Original thread: http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7616

 

[Bernard]

At the risk of sounding like a heretic, I have to say that reproduced music does not sound like the real thing because you are missing visial cues, which are particularly important for jazz and small classical ensembles, i.e. are the jazz musicians enjoying themselves? It seems to really sound so much better if they are. Yeah, I'm crazy, but that's my opinion. On the classical side, have you ever seen/heard the Beaux Arts Trio live? Menahem Pressler, the pianist, seems to get so much pleasure from making music with his violinist and cellist that everything seems to sound so much better.

I have my flak jacket on for the responses to this post.