What do you NOT like about the sound of your MLs?

[User211]

Personally, after decades I guess now of listening to MLs, I have to have a change.

It may be temporary, but recently my Ascents have been annoying me to bits.

Basically, the mid-range speed with no supporting weight makes them sound weak & thin. They have no weight because the driver (a piece of film) has no mass. There is no cure here, apart from the CLX, which cludges the thin film high freq. driver with what I predicted as a thicker sounding mid/bass unit. It works well.

Maybe it's time to slow down at bit....

What does everyone else think? If you were going to have a real go at your MLs, where would you attack?

My memories of ribbon speakers do not suffer from this affliction. And there are no dynamic (cone drivers) and essentially totally differently behaving elements to deal with.

Bad bass integration? Every new model has better bass integration, so we read. BS - they have different bass integration, but better? Again, what do you think?

 

[Mantana]

what's your price range?

For $4500 retail, the PSB Synchrony Ones are fast, detailed
and image well. I don't own them but i was impressed with
their sound from a mainline manufacturer.

 

[FISH_MAN]

they seem to be a bit on the fragile side this more pertains to the new generation vista,summit,spire and so on

sonically they leave little to be desired

 

[Brad225]

Before you do anything rash and crazy like changing speakers
You may have tried these things but if not give them a shot even if only temporarily.
From the pics of your system your speakers are really close to the wall. Try giving them some breathing room. Find some acoustic material to dampen low end.
Have you tried moving your sub to different locations. I was playing with my subs last week and moved them so they were almost in between my CLS's instead of behind them and it sucked the life out of the mid range.
If moving things around for a few days doesn't help try a high end SS amp. I am sure you must be able to get a loaner or offer to rent from a dealer or a friend. Don't give up on your speakers to easy. I have heard aeon's driven by Craig's Nemos and George's (Rampage) Pass X350.5 and those small speakers sounded amazing.

My final suggestion I have made to a number of people and they usually laugh is go to your doctor or a clinic and have the wax cleaned from your ears. This has been one of the best inexpensive things I have done regularly for better sound.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Justin,

I also have decades of experience with ML's. Have owned four different models over the last 25 years or so.

Every time I think that ML has a weakness, I make adjustments and find that it has more to do with other "elements" in the chain and not the speaker.

Yes, they are very transparent and revealing but I would question if that's a valid reason to consider changing to another speaker.

I, for one, am very reluctant to assign a sonic signature to this product line.

I totally understand if your position is that I've tried but just can't "get there".

GG

 

[Tosh]

Basically, the mid-range speed with no supporting weight makes them sound weak & thin. They have no weight because the driver (a piece of film) has no mass. There is no cure here, apart from the CLX, which cludges the thin film high freq. driver with what I predicted as a thicker sounding mid/bass unit. It works well.

Completely barking up the wrong tree! Unless you equate 'weight' with coloration = distortion. Your problem is somewhere else (upstream or room-related), not with the ESL film. You're in danger of sounding like the non-ESL believers who imagine or rationalize seemingly intuitive physical models that actually have no basis in science. Don't give up!

In your defense, what made the Ascent 'i' better than Ascent? Perhaps there's something upgradeable.

 

[Rich]

Basically, the mid-range speed with no supporting weight makes them sound weak & thin. They have no weight because the driver (a piece of film) has no mass.

Weak and thin? I don't think so, Justin. First of all, it isn't the "mass" of the driver that is going to give weight and depth to music, so that is a non-starter. Second, what do you mean by "no supporting weight?" You have a Descent, for crying out loud!

By the way, do you biamp your Ascents? If you do, then you already know the benefits. But if you don't, then you really should try it. Then again, maybe you just need to replace those light bulbs with some big Pass Labs X600.5 monos. I promise that you won't be lamenting about "weak and thin" with something along those lines hooked up to your Ascents. Think: warmth, depth and iron-fisted control!

As for bass integration, I have no problems at all with the bass integration of my Summits. But then again, I have a room full of acoustic treatments that helps with that.

 

[amey01]

Every speaker has its advantages and disadvantages. I personally have a problem with the bass integration too - and with my new Vistas, the quality of the bass too - my Aerius was better. But the Vistas have many things that make me love them to bits. This is the compromise I am prepared to make.

Everyone's different - that's why there are ML and there are other brands too!

 

[tonepub]

I thought you were getting Apogees....

 

[tonepub]

Im happy to say that after 30 years of chasing the rabbit, I have no complaints...

 

[FISH_MAN]

Personally, after decades I guess now of listening to MLs, I have to have a change.

maybe the change you need is just a few steps up the product line and a few steps foreword in time. not trying to spend your money for you but what you need is a set of spires !

 

[Bernard]

go to your doctor or a clinic and have the wax cleaned from your ears.

With one of those high pressure things that deafen you and make you go momentarily dizzy? No thanks. Mineral oil is much better.

 

[Brad225]

With one of those high pressure things that deafen you and make you go momentarily dizzy? No thanks. Mineral oil is much better.

If by one of those high pressure things you mean a hand squeeze bottle with some hydrogen peroxide and water than yes.
If you me mean one of those vacuum systems not a chance. One of my doctors tried that once never again:devil:.
Some type of oil to soften things is a good idea.

 

[C.A.P]

I thought you were getting Apogees....

Tes as well as I did ?????????

Personally, after decades I guess now of listening to MLs, I have to have a change.

It may be temporary, but recently my Ascents have been annoying me to bits.

Basically, the mid-range speed with no supporting weight makes them sound weak & thin. They have no weight because the driver (a piece of film) has no mass. There is no cure here, apart from the CLX, which cludges the thin film high freq. driver with what I predicted as a thicker sounding mid/bass unit. It works well.

Maybe it's time to slow down at bit....

What does everyone else think? If you were going to have a real go at your MLs, where would you attack?

My memories of ribbon speakers do not suffer from this affliction. And there are no dynamic (cone drivers) and essentially totally differently behaving elements to deal with.

Bad bass integration? Every new model has better bass integration, so we read. BS - they have different bass integration, but better? Again, what do you think?

Time for a real ML and a large panel to refresh your love . I personally agree with you on a few things. The smaller panels on the Accent are thin sounding to me. I prefer the older sound of a Quest with its rather large panel. Many new ML are not my cup of tea either. Now all you Summit owners do not get in a hizy and say its new technology. I LOVE the summit and the Spire. they use a different technology to get big sound from small package. However : the smaller panels of the older but newer than the original Logan's does sound a bit thin.

Go CLS and never look back. Large and in charge

 

[danman]

I agree with CAP. Not to say that the Summits and Spires don't sound good by all means only that I also prefer the large panels and the incredible mid range that the newer ones don't do as well. I guess each model has its signature and I would rather keep my Quests ( even though I am still in battle with aquiring new panels at a more reasonable cost!!!!).

The CLS is also an amazing sounding speaker that is really hard to beat. With the right sub woofer, I believe you would come very close to the top of the line!

I do believe the integration of the woofers to the panels in the newer models are quite incredible but I have recently added a REL sub to my Quests and the sound is quite more amazing than I thought it would be.

 

[User211]

Weak and thin? I don't think so, Justin. First of all, it isn't the "mass" of the driver that is going to give weight and depth to music, so that is a non-starter. Second, what do you mean by "no supporting weight?" You have a Descent, for crying out loud!

By the way, do you biamp your Ascents? If you do, then you already know the benefits. But if you don't, then you really should try it. Then again, maybe you just need to replace those light bulbs with some big Pass Labs X600.5 monos. I promise that you won't be lamenting about "weak and thin" with something along those lines hooked up to your Ascents. Think: warmth, depth and iron-fisted control!

As for bass integration, I have no problems at all with the bass integration of my Summits. But then again, I have a room full of acoustic treatments that helps with that.

Hm... putting this into words is difficult, but I genuinely think that apart from the CLX, the ML drivers can sound thin. I have heard it in all MLs apart from the CLX. Note I haven't heard the CLS or even Monoliths.

With a Descent, there is of course stacks of weight, especially if you turn it up.

What I mean is entirely in the mid-band, where they can sound very "thin" with the right (make that wrong) material. Surely everone here knows what I am barking at when I say that if they own Ascents - or even Summits/Spires.

Part of the reason for using a tube amp is to warm this area up a bit, which I think it does. But they can still sound thin.

Bass is very good with my tube amps and the blend with the Descent is great, but there is always a slight integration problem with all the hybrids that would be nice to lose.

Don't get me wrong - they are excellent speakers. I wouldn't have lived with them for so long if that wasn't the case. But they do have issues, like anything else. Maybe I just want to try a different set of "issues" for a while

Anyway, yeah, I am trying to get hold of those Apogee Duettas... but the seller seems to be on holiday or something at the mo...

 

[User211]

Before you do anything rash and crazy like changing speakers
You may have tried these things but if not give them a shot even if only temporarily.
From the pics of your system your speakers are really close to the wall. Try giving them some breathing room. Find some acoustic material to dampen low end.
Have you tried moving your sub to different locations. I was playing with my subs last week and moved them so they were almost in between my CLS's instead of behind them and it sucked the life out of the mid range.
If moving things around for a few days doesn't help try a high end SS amp. I am sure you must be able to get a loaner or offer to rent from a dealer or a friend. Don't give up on your speakers to easy. I have heard aeon's driven by Craig's Nemos and George's (Rampage) Pass X350.5 and those small speakers sounded amazing.

My final suggestion I have made to a number of people and they usually laugh is go to your doctor or a clinic and have the wax cleaned from your ears. This has been one of the best inexpensive things I have done regularly for better sound.

Brad - look at the later picture of the room and you can see the Ascents are well forward of the rear wall.

Ears are clean at the mo...

 

[User211]

Hi Justin,

I also have decades of experience with ML's. Have owned four different models over the last 25 years or so.

Every time I think that ML has a weakness, I make adjustments and find that it has more to do with other "elements" in the chain and not the speaker.

Yes, they are very transparent and revealing but I would question if that's a valid reason to consider changing to another speaker.

I, for one, am very reluctant to assign a sonic signature to this product line.

I totally understand if your position is that I've tried but just can't "get there".

GG

Actually decades was a little inaccurate - not far off two decades is the truth...

As I have said, I'll run the Apogees for a while, see if I prefer them, and if not, keep the Ascents whilst I consider the next move. I've gotta try it - it's been on my mind for ages.

Watch this space for further info...

Must admit I also thought about the SOUNDLAB MILLENIUM M3 on ebay UK at the mo... but not for long. Too big for my room.

 

[FISH_MAN]

perhaps it may be fun to experiment with some hi end EQ's for your speakers.

 

[Beakman]

Personally, after decades I guess now of listening to MLs, I have to have a change.

It may be temporary, but recently my Ascents have been annoying me to bits.

Basically, the mid-range speed with no supporting weight makes them sound weak & thin. They have no weight because the driver (a piece of film) has no mass. There is no cure here, apart from the CLX, which cludges the thin film high freq. driver with what I predicted as a thicker sounding mid/bass unit. It works well.

Maybe it's time to slow down at bit....

What does everyone else think? If you were going to have a real go at your MLs, where would you attack?

My memories of ribbon speakers do not suffer from this affliction. And there are no dynamic (cone drivers) and essentially totally differently behaving elements to deal with.

Bad bass integration? Every new model has better bass integration, so we read. BS - they have different bass integration, but better? Again, what do you think?

This thin and weak sounding mid you speak of? I also thought my speakers were a little too forward but at the low mid range giving the effect of the other ranges being overshadowed. My fix was to use the Behringer PEQ module and reduce the 447 Hz at 1/3 octave by 3.5 dB. Note that this is right around the crossover point.