Want to get "Tubed"-Please help

[hillbilly]

First time post-long time reader,

I'm starting to upgrade sound one piece of equipment at a time.
I have Requests that are passively bi-amped. The bottom is powered
with a Carver M4.0T, and the panels with a B&K 200.2. They sound
better than when I used the B&K for both.
Lately I've been thinking about using tubes for the panels, and moving
the B&K to the bottom. I have absolutely NO experience with tube amps.
From what I have read here, you guys like tubes for the stats.
My question is what to look for to get started? Jolida seems to be fairly
priced used. Their 502 is 60 watts. Is that sufficient, or should I lean
towards the JD 1000? My listening room is 18x16x9.
I use the system 60% music/40% HT. Music is mostly contemporary
Jazz, lots of acoustical instruments, and female vocalists.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.:music:

 

[tsv_1]

First time post-long time reader,

I'm starting to upgrade sound one piece of equipment at a time.
I have Requests that are passively bi-amped. The bottom is powered
with a Carver M4.0T, and the panels with a B&K 200.2. They sound
better than when I used the B&K for both.
Lately I've been thinking about using tubes for the panels, and moving
the B&K to the bottom. I have absolutely NO experience with tube amps.
From what I have read here, you guys like tubes for the stats.
My question is what to look for to get started? Jolida seems to be fairly
priced used. Their 502 is 60 watts. Is that sufficient, or should I lean
towards the JD 1000? My listening room is 18x16x9.
I use the system 60% music/40% HT. Music is mostly contemporary
Jazz, lots of acoustical instruments, and female vocalists.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.:music:

Oh you'll likely get as many opinions on this sort of question as there are members in this forum. Here's mine: Requests, having no built-in amplification for the low-end, will gleefully devour those delicious tube watts. However, there is plenty of evidence that suggests something in the 60W range could be adequate, depending on your listening habits (even though the user-manual for this model suggests 80W as a minimum). Keep in mind that, at 90dB, these speakers are reasonably efficient. It only takes 1 watt for them to produce 90dB SPL. That's nothin' to sneeze at. If you have an SPL meter (or an iPhone with an SPL app), you'll quickly determine that 90dB (on average) provides a decent soundfield, even in a room as large as yours. Of course music is all about the dynamics, and that's why some folks opt for KW amps... they want those dyamic peaks recreated without limit, and this is a fair goal. Now, since your setup is also serving your HT needs, things like nuclear explosions, giant robots ravaging a city, and planets being aggressively dismantled... these things will require some power. And assuming you'll be wiring things up so that the stereo tube amp drives the main l/r speakers... yeah, you may want more than 60W. If it were music only and given your preferred musical tastes, I would be tempted to say 60W most likely suffice. Heck, while I wait for some new speakers to come in, I'm driving a pair of relatively inefficient Magnepans MG12s (86dB) with a pair of 70W tube monoblocks... and it works (very nicely) for me. But in the end, given your mixed music and HT usage, this one forum member would probably be tempted to recommend something with a bit more punch. Keep in mind however that high wattage tube amps burn loads of power themselves... they are anything but green, and will also happily heat up their surroundings. Things to consider.

At any rate, this is the sort of discussion topic that can go on and on with indepth power/SPL analysis, HT vs 2-channel comparisons, Tube amp preferences, tube rolling, dollar budgets, ad infinitum.

Oh, and BTW, I have a Jolida 502A for sale .... in the event you decide 60W would make a good starting point (despite my arguments above that might suggest otherwise). I never was very good at sales.

Cheers, Todd

 

[JonFo]

...
From what I have read here, you guys like tubes for the stats....

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.:music:

Well, not all of us like tubes for stats

I'll let the tube connoisseurs give you feedback on options for those.

But I would encourage you to compare that to what a true high-current amp can do on the panels, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Get a used (good condition) Sunfire amp and power the panels with that.

 

[tsv_1]

Well, not all of us like tubes for stats

I'll let the tube connoisseurs give you feedback on options for those.

But I would encourage you to compare that to what a true high-current amp can do on the panels, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Get a used (good condition) Sunfire amp and power the panels with that.

Jonathan,

I just have to say... your SL3XC project is nothing short of brilliant. Really, seriously beautiful work! :bowdown:

 

[hillbilly]

Jonathan,

Your system, and the time and effort is amazing! It definitely inspires me to
improve mine. I had thought about a Sunfire, it would surely make my system
simpler.

At the moment, I'm intrigued by the musical improvement tubes could provide.


Todd,

Your tubes look fantastic! How would you compare their sound to SS amps?
My dilema is in Central CA, I don't have much of an oportunity to listen.
I know watts are not everything, but is there much difference between
60 & 100 in tubes? I do need enough output for HT ( which I have now),
but some instruments, like alto sax, sound a little brittle. Is this where tubes
could improve?

I talked to a gentleman at Jolida, and he seemed to think the 502 would be
enough for the Requests, with 90 dB eff.
Any other brands good to start my journey with?

( I may be interested in your 502, please e-mail with info)


Thanks for the help,

This is a great community!

Dennis
:music:

 

[Gordon Gray]

Dennis,

I also fall into the SS camp although I'm sure tubes can do just as well.

Seems like you may be asking about colorations versus accuracy.

Each type has its "historical" sonic signature but I believe current manufacturers of both strive for a more neutral sound.

Best advice, audition in your own system with a money back guarantee.

GG

 

[tsv_1]

Your tubes look fantastic!

Thank you most kindly. I love the looks of the Primaluna Dialogue series, but not as much as I love their sound

How would you compare their sound to SS amps?

A loaded question if ever there was one Of course this is all highly subjective, but be that as it may: I listen to a lot of classical, choral, acoustic, some jazz, some swing (e.g. love Lyle Lovett), and the almighty female vocal. Not so much pop or rock, and rarely any metal. That said, I would have to re-use the classic tube sound descriptions - warmer, more liquid, and more "alive" than SS. And I've owned some decent SS, so TO ME, these are accurate statements. I'm listening to Mozart's Magic Flute as I write this and it is nothing less than sublime!

I know watts are not everything, but is there much difference between
60 & 100 in tubes?

Well, I gotta say the power rating is secondary to the amplifier itself. There are extremely good sounding 50W Tube amps that absolutely destroy 100W tube amps in all areas of performance... but (and it's a big but), you usually pay right through the nose for that level of performance. Given two amps of the same topology, build-quality, and components - but with one 60W and the other 100W, sure, you'll get a little more headroom from the 100W amp. But if you look at it from a technical perspective, you need 10 times the power for every 2X doubling in perceived loudness. So, you would need a 600W amp to get twice the (unclipped) volume of a 60W amp. You can see where the extra 40W (between the 60W and 100W in your hypothetical example) isn't really going to buy you a lot. But on the other hand... for those peaks that require just a little more headroom, well... you see the point.

I do need enough output for HT ( which I have now),
but some instruments, like alto sax, sound a little brittle. Is this where tubes
could improve?

IMO (and others may feel differently), yes... for those instruments and vocals that predominantly sit in the upper-bass and mid frequencies (sax is a good example), a well designed tube amp can be magical.

I talked to a gentleman at Jolida, and he seemed to think the 502 would be enough for the Requests, with 90 dB eff.
Any other brands good to start my journey with?

There are a slew of options... would need to know your max budget before I, or anyone here, could really make any meaningful recommendations. And there's always Audiogon which is great for window-shopping, review perusal, and pricing comparisons. In my case, I chose PrimaLuna (new) for a few reasons... First and foremost, they sound incredible to me. Second, they incorporate an auto-bias feature that frees me from ever having to worry about accurate tube biasing (that's huge to me... I'de rather not be constantly checking the bias just to see if it's a +/- few hundred microamps off ideal - no thank you). Also the build-quality is excellent for the price point. Finally, the asthetics, to me, are supurb. I'm one of those admittedly shallow audio-guys who want his system to look great as well as sound great. To my eye, the PrimaLuna's score big in the looks department.

( I may be interested in your 502, please e-mail with info)

Sure... will do


Cheers,

-Todd

 

[tsv_1]

Best advice, audition in your own system with a money back guarantee.

GG

Good advice as usual from Gordon

 

[Gordon Gray]

Dennis,

Regarding the "brittle" sound on the alto sax, could be your amp, preamp, or room acoustics assuming you're not over driving the amp.

If the amp is clipping, that's a not uncommon result with an SS amp.

That's where tube amps can help. When they "clip", they run out of dynamics (restrict volume level) and sound softer. Much more pleasant on the ear.

Regardless, over driving any amp is not a good idea. If you are using a "dynamic / cone" speaker, you can definitely take out a driver or a woofer in the case of an ML hybrid.

GG

 

[hillbilly]

Gordon,

Thanks, your replies make my issues easy to understand. I appreciated that in your replies in others' threads.

Checked your system out--WOW:bowdown:

I noticed you have a lot of plants. I'm in the Nursery business, so my listening area is packed with large plants. Does this help with your acoustics?
I don't have any treatments yet---got a lot to learn still.
Fantastic view! Our windows are smaller, but we get the backside of
Mt. Whitney.

Todd,

A plethora of info. It's this journey that makes the hobby so cool--never
want to reach a "destination".
I'll be starting used; $1,000 or less.

Guess I'm looking for all the great opinions on SQ to see if tubes are an
upward move from my B&K 200.2 on the panels.

 

[Stefan]

I can only agree with tsv_1 regarding Prima Luna. I have a pair of Dialogue Sevens driving my Ethos. Gotta love that sound.

 

[Spike]

My auditions with the Jolida (and a bunch of other tube amps) were not favorable in terms of driving the ReQuest panels. They sound anemic, uninvolved. That's when I learned that power supply design (and execution) makes the world of difference with amplifiers, especially the medium powered tubes for driving the demanding load of a ReQuest panel. For someone starting out in tube world, I would stay with well-proven products like Cary, Audio Research, BAT, Prima Luna, etc... before going "off-road" exploring more exotic venues. That said, there are a few things I'd like to point out for your system since I went through pretty much the same exercise a few years ago. For a combined system serving HT and music duties, you'd need to answer for yourself whether burning up the tube hours for HT explosion will be acceptable. Especially when you're driving the LR panels with tubes which will not match (sonically) with the center channel. A few HT enthusiasts will object to the glaring non-blend of sonic characteristic between LR and center. For the $1000 budget, I don't see a good tube amp which can handle the panels to provide improvements over the B&K. You'll need to start your budget around $1500 to realize the improvements. BUT, there's a compromise (and I think will work for your situation) in hybrid amp where the tubes are used in the signal/voltage stage, handing off to solid-state in the current output. Look for Monarchy Audio amplifiers on A'gon. If you are looking for improvement around $1k budget, I'd look for a well-designed solid-state amp like BAT vk200, older Classe', Threshold, Proceed, Acurus. Those are reputable brands which have proven records of VERY reliable products. Of course, this list is just off the top of my head and is by no mean, exhaustive.

Good Luck,
Spike

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Dennis,

Spike makes some very good points.

Given the replacement cost for tubes, using a tube amp for HT could be a dubious proposition. Normally, one has a tube amp for a dedicated 2CH system.

As far as room acoustics and using plants as part of the equation, this brings up a very subjective issue. Some will say absorption is appropriate and yields the best results. Others will say that diffusion works quite well. I use both because, after numerous hour of listening, that's what sounds best for me.

There is no right answer.

Enjoy the journey and let your ears be the ultimate judge.

GG

 

[tsv_1]

Dennis,

While I agree with the guys that a tube solution may not be an ideal scenario if you plan to watch a lot of HT, it shouldn't stop you from continuing to look into it. Assuming you don't want to throw hours of HT time on the tubes, then if you could place a stereo tube amp reasonably close to your B&K and can quickly access the speaker terminals of both, then perhaps consider just "converting" your system from SS to Tube when you want to enjoy 2-channel playback. Is it convenient? Not particularly, but depending on your situation, it may be worth the effort if you want to spend some time familiarizing yourself with tube amplification.

Another option would be a high quality switch - something that some audiophiles would reject, but I say could be worth at least looking into if only temporarily. Bryston makes a high quality 2-way switcher http://bryston.com/2switch.html

And I guess a third option would be to run a second set of speaker cables from tube amp to speaker, and make the (manual) switch at the speaker terminals.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

Cheers, Todd

 

[hillbilly]

OK Guys,

Still a little confused, but it's the learning process that makes it fun.

Spike, Gordon ,& Todd are all opening my eyes. I was hind of wondering
if tubes would work in HT/Music setup. Unfortunately real estate in our
home doesn't allow for a dedicated music room at this time.

Maybe one large, quality, multi-channel amp would be the better solution
for my HT right now, instead of all my separate amps. Maybe a Sunfire?

I guess I am little curious as to how the Requests sound with tubes.

The switching suggestion is intriguing (more research).

Thanks again!

 

[tsv_1]

Maybe one large, quality, multi-channel amp would be the better solution
for my HT right now, instead of all my separate amps

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[Spike]

I guess I am little curious as to how the Requests sound with tubes.

Sorry, I did not mean to alarm or discourage anyone from exploring tubes in a combined HT/Music system. I just wanted to point out the issue so you guys will be aware of the financial side effects when it comes to re-tubing. Once you come to terms with tubes in a combined system (like yours truly), the result is glorious! Like you, I have ReQuests and Cinema in a tube-based system serving HT and music duties. The ReQuest panels are VERY hard to beat when paired with good tube amplifiers.

Spike

 

[Gordon Gray]

Spike,

Glad you like your tubes but there are many paths to making the ML panels sing.

I tried a VTL 150 tube amp in my system, returned it, bought the Pass, and never looked back.

For myself and others, Pass Labs offers a very good mix of both amplifier's (SS and tube) strengths and musicality.

GG

 

[Steelhead]

tubes with ReQuest's

I have run solid state, tubes, and a combo heaven/hell tubes on panels and ss on bottom on the ReQuests so I will chime in.

I had a 70 watt per channel cj premier 11a. It did not have enough grunt although I did listen low level to get a fix on the sound with everything running from a tube amp.

I have two Hafler DH-500's so I had plenty of solid state power. I ended up running the hafler on the bottom and cj on top and that was the best combination.

I ended up buying cj premier 12's (140 channel) as I wanted to run tubes exclusively but ended up with Summits so basically I still run a heaven/hell although I sure have power and dynamics now.

In my room and in my environment and to my ears tubes are it. They add a dimension and depth to the ReQuests that solid state cannot match.

It is your ears so you decide but a buddy borrowed the cj 11a for his Maggie 3.5's and ended up selling his two big adcom amps and buying Cary V12 monoblocks.

Tubes are fantastic with stat's!!!

Have a ball!

 

[Gordon Gray]

Don't want to be disagreeable but Adcom and Hafler are not the sonic equivalents of Pass Labs, Spectral, MBL, Sanders, etc. The only commonality is that all are solid state.

IMHO, one thing to avoid in the hi end is to generalize. Although Hafler and Adcom are generally considered as a good value, neither are considered, by most folks, as hi end.

Again, the key is to audition in one's own system and let your ears make the final decision.

The SS versus Tube discussion has been beaten to death and, given top quality gear along with all the other myriad of variables optimized, is effectively meaningless.

At that point, it becomes very subjective, as it should.

GG