I imagine it was because they want to increase sales of new product vs. discontinued product. It is a far stretch of credulity for an ML rep to say that the EM's are more accurate and have as good a soundstage as the Vista.
Vista's Versus Electromotion ESL's
- Thread starter mark_inri
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I imagine it was because they want to increase sales of new product vs. discontinued product. It is a far stretch of credulity for an ML rep to say that the EM's are more accurate and have as good a soundstage as the Vista.
projectormovielover
Well-known member
It is what reps are paid to do
When peter soderberg responded to a post I made when I said I could buy a used pair of vista for the price of the electromotion he said "Yes, a used Vista may be a better deal, but risks on the used market are there so be careful" so why would he say that ? Its because he knows music and that Vistas are better
When peter soderberg responded to a post I made when I said I could buy a used pair of vista for the price of the electromotion he said "Yes, a used Vista may be a better deal, but risks on the used market are there so be careful" so why would he say that ? Its because he knows music and that Vistas are better
Late reply
Vista contains older tech. Older product lines are retired as new ones are introduced. Flag ship models are updated to incorporate new techniques and materials. To count out Martin Logan's advice about their own products is pure hubris. And of course the Vistas must be better than the EM/ESL because you bought them and now must defend your purchase for whatever emotional reason known only to your sub conscience. M/L is improving their products all the time. I have no experience with the Vista but I do have significant time with the Source and the Purity, The EM/ESL has a wider and taller sweet spot. I haven't felt the need to jack them up or lean them back. A used Vista would only be a better deal if you got them for significantly less than the EM/ESL in my opinion. For the money the EM/ESL is a miracle.
Vista contains older tech. Older product lines are retired as new ones are introduced. Flag ship models are updated to incorporate new techniques and materials. To count out Martin Logan's advice about their own products is pure hubris. And of course the Vistas must be better than the EM/ESL because you bought them and now must defend your purchase for whatever emotional reason known only to your sub conscience. M/L is improving their products all the time. I have no experience with the Vista but I do have significant time with the Source and the Purity, The EM/ESL has a wider and taller sweet spot. I haven't felt the need to jack them up or lean them back. A used Vista would only be a better deal if you got them for significantly less than the EM/ESL in my opinion. For the money the EM/ESL is a miracle.
beek
Well-known member
I got my Vista's at almost the price of EM /ESL's with in home delivery new. Roberto & Peter cant be argued with, they are on the inside.
Roberto is a musician & an EE also has great ears and is Very helpfull around here. Seems to me like U are protecting your investment.
Roberto is a musician & an EE also has great ears and is Very helpfull around here. Seems to me like U are protecting your investment.
projectormovielover
Well-known member
Beek as a fellow Vista owner I am in agreement with you 100%
Sounds like you have buyers remorse rick because there is no new miracle tech in the electromotion. the Vista that you have not heard has a much larger panel thats made of the same material as the Electromotion. The cabinet on the electromotion has no nice veneer finish. I paid less for my new Vista than the price of some new Electromotion so it is clearly the smarter buy for those in the know and its nothing to do with some "emotional defense mechanism know to my subconsciousness" its all about what is the best speaker. I am sorry you bought the Electromotion and missed out on a fabulous deal on a 4k+ set of Martin Logans because they not only sound great but they look beautiful and classy
I have heard the electromotion extensively and they are clearly better than my source se although my source looks better because it has real wood veneer. I can say that the Vista has more air and a bigger soundstage so maybe you should go give them a listen and not get all defensive when people tell you they are better. ML is a great company but they do have to pay the bills so they will have to re-invent the same products with a little upgrade here and there
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beek
Well-known member
Amen, for the goof take a peek at the pix on my ML page this is just a sample, I have owned many stats,planars,ribbons of the decades.
Also have seen this sort of Attitude before..................
Ok, I'm no expert as far as M/L is concerned. As I stated Ive owned a few of the lower range Martin Logans (M10, Source, Purity and EM/ESL). Not a huge sample. As well as a number of other brands (PSB, B&W, Polk, Klipsch and others). I like the M/L for a the things they do. The Vista may be a wonderful speaker but I have no knowledge of it other than its life as a current model is clearly over. The good news for you is that parts and service will likely be available for a long time to come. I can't comment on the fit and finish either however I do like the EM over the Source and the purity as the veneer on those two are not as nice as the veneer on say a PSB Image. As far as protecting my investment I have several more weeks to decide if they go or stay. No investment to protect as of yet. I like them for vocals and strings. Not as much for symphonic music although opera sounds great. Rock and pop was just ok until I added a Sub (the Dynamo 700w). But then I haven't heard great dynamics from panel speakers (maggies as well) and if or when I do I'm sure it will be beyond my spending limit. If M/L states that the EM is a better unit then I will take their word for it and not look for any duplicity. You can assign any weight to it you wish and believe the company is stating anything other than fact.
As far as attitude is concerned Iv'e never threatened anyone (a friend?) with retribution for damage to my property wether willful or accidental (I have a house full of kids so things do get broken). And I'm well aware that the EM is an entry level product. If you think you made a good deal then I say be content. I managed to get the EM and Dynamo for way less than asking price so Im ok with my deal. Finally, if you say they are better it must be so.
As far as attitude is concerned Iv'e never threatened anyone (a friend?) with retribution for damage to my property wether willful or accidental (I have a house full of kids so things do get broken). And I'm well aware that the EM is an entry level product. If you think you made a good deal then I say be content. I managed to get the EM and Dynamo for way less than asking price so Im ok with my deal. Finally, if you say they are better it must be so.
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Really? And who might "some" be? Hard to have a seamless panel/cone integration when your crossover point is up around 500 hz.
Please explain to us what special new technology the EM's have incorporated that makes them better than a Vista? Please explain how a smaller panel and lower weight (therefore lower stability) make for a better-sounding electrostatic speaker.
No, it's not. Those of us who have been followers of the brand for some time (over ten years, myself) know that from time to time Martin Logan will overstate, exaggerate and sometimes just plainly misstate the facts in an effort to make their newest products seem revolutionary and a clear upgrade from previous products. And honestly, the answer you get may very well depend on who you talk to. We don't know who the OP talked to. So it isn't hubris to question it when it doesn't make any sense.
Right, because nobody who has actually heard the Vista could possibly have a different opinion than you (who admittedly hasn't heard them) unless they have some hidden agenda. Is that it? Give me a break.
beek
Well-known member
As far as attitude is concerned Iv'e never threatened anyone (a friend?) with retribution for damage to my property wether willful or accidental
If this is pertaining to my speaker abuse post, I wonder what you would do if anybody
Willingly set out to damage your equipment? The guys here feel the same I do they would pulverize him.
There is a big difference between a knowing stoned adult & innocent children. Listen you are the one that started this post &
You are barking up the wrong tree in the wrong neighborhood..Rich is quite right in what he stating here. (Rich and I are not old audio chums if that is what you think) He is just Right..
If this is pertaining to my speaker abuse post, I wonder what you would do if anybody
Willingly set out to damage your equipment? The guys here feel the same I do they would pulverize him.
There is a big difference between a knowing stoned adult & innocent children. Listen you are the one that started this post &
You are barking up the wrong tree in the wrong neighborhood..Rich is quite right in what he stating here. (Rich and I are not old audio chums if that is what you think) He is just Right..
projectormovielover
Well-known member
I think what Rick fails to grasp is that the Vista "IS" a wonderful speaker regardless of production date's. Thanks for the good news that ML will have parts available as I did not know that in all the time I have posted here
Another point you fail to grasp is that upstanding members like beek's attitude is not in question. I think beek is a great poster and is always willing reply to those not in the know .Members here like Rich really know what's what in this hobby. Your are not very compos mentis in the coversation and being argumentative. You should relax and not be so defensive Rick as everyone here only wants whats best for one another in the hobby and we tend to stick mostly to the facts
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Rickk, not sure from all this if you own EM's or I just missed it in the text. My vote would be the Vista's also. I bought EM's for the living room system because of their size (WAF). I have heard the Vista's and think they sound better because of the size of the panel and the sound field they produce.
My frame of reference is my CLS's in my listening room. I do believe the EM's are great speakers and am amazed with the sound they produce for their size.
If you think the Vista time has come and gone would you not purchase a non X Summit at a good price for the same reason if your price point was higher?
As Roberto would say "trust your ears".
It really doesn't mater what anyone else thinks.
My frame of reference is my CLS's in my listening room. I do believe the EM's are great speakers and am amazed with the sound they produce for their size.
If you think the Vista time has come and gone would you not purchase a non X Summit at a good price for the same reason if your price point was higher?
As Roberto would say "trust your ears".
It really doesn't mater what anyone else thinks.
beek
Well-known member
Amen again, now is time to get Spires cause of the new Montis at a great price...
beek
Well-known member
P/S This whole thread is becomming a ridiculious waste of time............
projectormovielover
Well-known member
It has became a waste of time beek but one positive that has come out of it is that the op "mark_inri" knows the diff between marketing and good sound. He is probably listening to his Vista that he chose over the Electromotion right now with a big smile on his face
roberto
Well-known member
Hola...yup, I think that too. Happy listening guys!
Thanks for that, Beek. I really need to start gathering links to all these posts where someone said something like that. Then, when someone questions what I say, I can just post links to a dozen different posts where someone else said I was right.
To Rick, I would just say . . . lighten up. It is all just subjective opinion, but I am thinking guys who have been involved with the brand a lot longer and who have heard both the EM and the Vista, probably have a more informed opinion than you on this.
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fsmithjack
Member
response
Bro... there are a lot of fans of the older speakers on here and it shows with how they faithfully defend the older, higher-end speakers and there is some truth and logic to what they say for sure. There is no clear cut winner like they would have you believe between these two offerings at their respective price ranges. They are different speakers in quite a few ways. It is a rather logic based semi-slanted opinion which is fair enough. Each year when newer, Hi-Tech product rolls out of a semi-big ticket nature there are subtle yet substantial internal evolutionary improvements involved that typically make the product better and better. Not always but with a company like ML that has a rock solid R&D unit that is still culturally relatively new to the dynamics of the big box store demand that has had the effect of driving down the ESL initial price points and increasing corresponding R&D budgets for this product. Sure they have the traditional Motion stuff out there for the Big Boxers but this is "the" speaker to draw the masses to the electrostat. It is to change the entire landscape of this company and to drive it into a new area of growth. It is the bridge speaker to draw them in and it is a more durable and more versatile speaker. Made to be driven driven by AVR's and still sound good. To be used in all the different modern home types of applications (HT, 7.1, 9.1, 2.1, Steam, Music, MP3, etc, etc) and still be excellent. It still has the limited sweat spot like the others but this is not your fathers finicky and fussy, Xstat of yesterday that is at a crazy price point for the 1%ers. This speaker is much more and its versatility and utility are its strengths. In HT is offers the next level of performance verse the older Xstats.This speaker will do more things better and do them better more often. This is ML's strategic speaker. The one. This is the price point. There is way more going on with the price of this speaker than just what the speaker is. I wouldn't bet against this speaker I would rather do the opposite and put it in my living room. OK so yes if both speakers are set up just so and driven just right (Vista's will cost more to drive comparably) and both are at the apex of their ability then yes the larger panel of the Vista will have more headroom for sure but that is taking a narrow view of the speaker as a whole. The ML rep did not mislead you in anyway. This is the speaker of the tomorrow and the Vista is the speaker of yesterday (although still an amazing speaker). The choice is yours...
Bro... there are a lot of fans of the older speakers on here and it shows with how they faithfully defend the older, higher-end speakers and there is some truth and logic to what they say for sure. There is no clear cut winner like they would have you believe between these two offerings at their respective price ranges. They are different speakers in quite a few ways. It is a rather logic based semi-slanted opinion which is fair enough. Each year when newer, Hi-Tech product rolls out of a semi-big ticket nature there are subtle yet substantial internal evolutionary improvements involved that typically make the product better and better. Not always but with a company like ML that has a rock solid R&D unit that is still culturally relatively new to the dynamics of the big box store demand that has had the effect of driving down the ESL initial price points and increasing corresponding R&D budgets for this product. Sure they have the traditional Motion stuff out there for the Big Boxers but this is "the" speaker to draw the masses to the electrostat. It is to change the entire landscape of this company and to drive it into a new area of growth. It is the bridge speaker to draw them in and it is a more durable and more versatile speaker. Made to be driven driven by AVR's and still sound good. To be used in all the different modern home types of applications (HT, 7.1, 9.1, 2.1, Steam, Music, MP3, etc, etc) and still be excellent. It still has the limited sweat spot like the others but this is not your fathers finicky and fussy, Xstat of yesterday that is at a crazy price point for the 1%ers. This speaker is much more and its versatility and utility are its strengths. In HT is offers the next level of performance verse the older Xstats.This speaker will do more things better and do them better more often. This is ML's strategic speaker. The one. This is the price point. There is way more going on with the price of this speaker than just what the speaker is. I wouldn't bet against this speaker I would rather do the opposite and put it in my living room. OK so yes if both speakers are set up just so and driven just right (Vista's will cost more to drive comparably) and both are at the apex of their ability then yes the larger panel of the Vista will have more headroom for sure but that is taking a narrow view of the speaker as a whole. The ML rep did not mislead you in anyway. This is the speaker of the tomorrow and the Vista is the speaker of yesterday (although still an amazing speaker). The choice is yours...
projectormovielover
Well-known member
You really don't know much about Martin Logan and I found this odd to be your first post on the forum. I missed the whole point of it ?
shakham
Well-known member
projectormovielover, I had to read his post a couple of times, but I get what he's saying: "The King is dead. Long live the King!"
