tweaking the sub in older MLs

[NicksPicks]

has it ever been discussed, attempted?
I'm wondering if one could just add one of those digital amp boards that they sell for DIY sub kits (partsexpress.com).
cut out and install it in the rear of the sub cabinet (think sequels, for example), or mount it externally and then wire up the ML cone to it.

there would be some cross-over work to be done so that inputs on the binding posts of the speaker would jump to the digital amp powering the whoofer portion.

I dont know...just a thought.
might be a cheap way to "wake up" the whoofers and give them a little more gain in the mix between them and the panel.

 

[nsgarch]

Interesting

and not a bad idea actually if you want to make the effort. What you'd have to find (and I think they're available) is a plate amp that is specifially for subwoofer use; i.e. it has provision for speaker level input. That way, you could simply insert the plate amp before the woofer(s) and the leads that originally went (from the crossover) to the woofer(s) could now go to the speaker level inputs of the new subwoofer plate amp. I'm sure you could find one at a place like Parts Express.

Basically, you're proposing to convert a ML hybrid to the current Summit/Vantage configuration (pre-biamped, I call it) and this would allow you to drive the panels themselves with a nice, modestly powered tube amp :rocker:

 

[NicksPicks]

you got it....thats what I'm after.
the plate amp is easy to find, such as this: (edit..tied to post a link but those are not allowed?)
well, go to parts express dot com, search under speaker building..you'll see.

curious why this thread was moved from the "tweaks" section?

 

[NicksPicks]

nothing to see here...

fwiw..
this post shouldn't be here. it should be in the tweaks section...as we are discussing "tweaking" a speaker, which is more on topic than the "off topic" board.
Unless I was mistakenly talking about baseball and just got confused.





probably wont get too much activity given its awkward location.

 

[slowGEEZR]

I'm curious. What's the advantage over just bi-amping?

 

[twich54]

fwiw..
this post shouldn't be here. it should be in the tweaks section...as we are discussing "tweaking" a speaker, which is more on topic than the "off topic" board.
Unless I was mistakenly talking about baseball and just got confused.





probably wont get too much activity given its awkward location.

Nicks, READ THE LOCATION...... "off/topics AUDIO/VIDEO", this IS where this belongs , had you actually performed the tweak and wanted to share all that was ACTUALLY done, etc, then it would go in the Tweaks section.

Please take note of Tom's guidelines at the top / beginning of each category, for it outlines how and what to post.

Thank you !!!

 

[IWalker]

NicksPicks, what this is doing is essentially just bi-amping the speakers. Get 2 amps, run signal to both from the pre, and then run one set of wires to the panels and one set to the woofers (these do have 2 sets of binding posts per speaker, right?) By using a plate amp, you're just making your life more difficult, without any perceived advantages, imo. If you want to do it up RIGHT, get an active crossover...run the signal through that, then split it out to the amps...and remove the passive crossover components from the ML. If you're going to go that far, I'd go with what JonFo did, and just make yourself a bass array... Various levels of the same project. His post and mine on doing the arrays are in the DIY section.

If you're looking for the cheap solution....get a pro-amp. You can get a crown XLS202 stereo amp (200wpc 8 ohms/300wpc 4 ohms) for $170. That's cheaper than what you'll likely get 2 plate amps for from partsexpress.

Does that help at all?

 

[NicksPicks]

IWalker...yea, that sort of helps. adding another amp is certainly the easy approach. I was thinking it might be cool just to attempt to "modernize" these speakers. If adding a $100 digital sub whoofer amp to the back cabinet will add some balls to the whoofer..., then that seems liek a cheap fun project.
getting another amp requires more ICs, more wires, more space in the cabinet, and no hacking of my speakers!!!, which could be the best part.
I"m gong to research it a little. Maybe even replace the whoofer w/something else.

making a bass array would be cool, but WAF is low ...or would be here. just matching a good sub on each side does the trick...but again, ugly...placement issues, wires..etc etc.
I just want Vantages w/o spending $5k.

 

[NicksPicks]

Nicks, READ THE LOCATION...... "off/topics AUDIO/VIDEO", this IS where this belongs , had you actually performed the tweak and wanted to share all that was ACTUALLY done, etc, then it would go in the Tweaks section.

Please take note of Tom's guidelines at the top / beginning of each category, for it outlines how and what to post.

Thank you !!!

Aaaahhh, off topic audio/video vs. generalized "off topic".
the light...I think i see it.

 

[IWalker]

IWalker...yea, that sort of helps. adding another amp is certainly the easy approach. I was thinking it might be cool just to attempt to "modernize" these speakers. If adding a $100 digital sub whoofer amp to the back cabinet will add some balls to the whoofer..., then that seems liek a cheap fun project.
getting another amp requires more ICs, more wires, more space in the cabinet, and no hacking of my speakers!!!, which could be the best part.
I"m gong to research it a little. Maybe even replace the whoofer w/something else.

making a bass array would be cool, but WAF is low ...or would be here. just matching a good sub on each side does the trick...but again, ugly...placement issues, wires..etc etc.
I just want Vantages w/o spending $5k.

Haha, I know the feeling, I love the DIY aspect as well. There are a few considerations, though.

1. Resale. You will never be able to resell the speakers if you cut them up. If you bi-amp them you will.
2. in order to get a plate amp to work, you'd need to have dual line-level outputs...one would go to your normal amp, for the panels, and one channel of the 2nd output would go to each of the plate amps. Now, you'd have to essentially take that amplified output, and attach it before the passive crossover, as opposed to directly to the woofer, in order for the crossover point to stay the same. IE, you're going to now have IC wires stretched across the room instead of speaker wire, and while the speaker wire would now be hidden (if you could manage to cram the plate amp in), you'd have created a speaker with no relative benefits vs traditional bi-amp, and have killed the resale value to boot. There are much better ways to spend your time/money on DIY projects to help the sound than by doing this.
3. Where would you put said plate amp? is there space in the cabinent? Doesn't look like it to me. If you put it in its own cabinet off to the side, that's exactly the same as bi-amping, except you'd be using a crappier amp than one you could get for the same money in a standard rackmount chassis.
4. Subs, you could cross over as high as you need, potentially...but you'd need to have them in non-ideal sub positions (ie right next to the speakers, as opposed to in the corner where you get a bass loading effect) in order to not effect the imaging. If you want to DIY...build yourself a sub. It's a great first project (if you haven't already done projects)...and can pay great dividends. I have a thread in the DIY forum about a great sub I built...might be interesting for you to try.

 

[twich54]

...I think i see it.

Said the blind man , as he picked up his hammer and saw !!

 

[nsgarch]

Partly true I guess

Haha, I know the feeling, I love the DIY aspect as well. There are a few considerations, though. 1. Resale. You will never be able to resell the speakers if you cut them up. If you bi-amp them you will.

True

2. in order to get a plate amp to work, you'd need to have dual line-level outputs...one would go to your normal amp, for the panels, and one channel of the 2nd output would go to each of the plate amps. Now, you'd have to essentially take that amplified output, and attach it before the passive crossover, as opposed to directly to the woofer, in order for the crossover point to stay the same. IE, you're going to now have IC wires stretched across the room instead of speaker wire, and while the speaker wire would now be hidden (if you could manage to cram the plate amp in), you'd have created a speaker with no relative benefits vs traditional bi-amp, and have killed the resale value to boot. There are much better ways to spend your time/money on DIY projects to help the sound than by doing this.

False, if you use a plate amp made for subwoofes as I recommended above. They come with a set of speaker level inputs as well as the normal line level inputs, and can simply be "inserted" between the speaker's crossover network and the woofer(s).

3. Where would you put said plate amp? is there space in the cabinent? Doesn't look like it to me. If you put it in its own cabinet off to the side, that's exactly the same as bi-amping, except you'd be using a crappier amp than one you could get for the same money in a standard rackmount chassis.

True/False. Most plate amps are surface mount, fairly thin, and usually around 5" x 8" +/_ (thus the name "plate" amp.) Just bolt it on the back of the cabinet and drill a couple small holes for the necessary wiring. Some do require a cut-out, but should actually increase the value of the speaker IMO. Here's a link to a nice ICE-powered Class D subwoofer amp with high and line level inputs: http://www.madisound.com/kgnd.html and there must be dozens listed on Google.

 

[IWalker]

True

False, if you use a plate amp made for subwoofes as I recommended above. They come with a set of speaker level inputs as well as the normal line level inputs, and can simply be "inserted" between the speaker's crossover network and the woofer(s).

True/False. Most plate amps are surface mount, fairly thin, and usually around 5" x 8" +/_ (thus the name "plate" amp.) Just bolt it on the back of the cabinet and drill a couple small holes for the necessary wiring. Some do require a cut-out, but should actually increase the value of the speaker IMO. Here's a link to a nice ICE-powered Class D subwoofer amp with high and line level inputs: http://www.madisound.com/kgnd.html and there must be dozens listed on Google.

Ok, right. Good call. High Level inputs. you'd still want the crossover between the plate amp and the woofer, though...else you don't that matched...sure you can use the plate amp's controls if you want...but not ideal, imo.

That was my point...I know there's plenty of internal volume for a plate amp...but is there enough room on the surface of the cabinet to fit a plate amp...most of which are around 10x12 inches, in my experience. With the current ML backplate there, I wouldn't think there would be.

Thanks for the correction on the high level inputs...I should have read that part more clearly earlier.

 

[nsgarch]

U raze an interesting point. . . . . .

Ok, right. Good call. High Level inputs. you'd still want the crossover between the plate amp and the woofer, though...else you don't that matched...sure you can use the plate amp's controls if you want...but not ideal, imo.That was my point...I know there's plenty of internal volume for a plate amp...but is there enough room on the surface of the cabinet to fit a plate amp...most of which are around 10x12 inches, in my experience. With the current ML backplate there, I wouldn't think there would be. Thanks for the correction on the high level inputs...I should have read that part more clearly earlier.

Obviously, it would be best to use the plate amp as simply an amp with high level inputs and no xovr function (just amplifying the frequencies sent to it by the speaker's xovr. ) But I'm not sure you can defeat the crossover function in the plate amp, though I guess you could set it high enough (if possible) so it wouldn't interfere with the crossover point in the speaker's crossover.

 

[NicksPicks]

it all sounds good to me.

as for resale...
not interested. I dont have the boxes for these...and I got them dirt ass cheap. they are not going anywhere...except the chopping block.

I was thinking the small plate amps that PE sells would work well, bolted right on to the rear of the cabinet. I'll figure out placement..
and as for crossover, sounds like that wont be too much of a hassle either.
Hmmm.....
I'm going to have to dump a few hundred into these amps and start to tinker.
I just hate having stereo "down time". On top of that, my rig sounds GREAT right now...., prime to to go messing around with it.

 

[NicksPicks]

those ICEpower'd plate amps cost more than I paid for my SQ2's.!

 

[nsgarch]

those ICEpower'd plate amps cost more than I paid for my SQ2's.!

Just because you bought them "dirt cheap ass" it doesn't follow that you must mod them "dirt cheap ass"! . . . . . and have you lived your whole life in Maine?

 

[IWalker]

good luck! let us know how it turns out. Your process/results would go great in the DIY section.

 

[NicksPicks]

Just because you bought them "dirt cheap ass" it doesn't follow that you must mod them "dirt cheap ass"! . . . . . and have you lived your whole life in Maine?

True enough..., but they are not expensive speakers to begin with, and i'm not going to add $1000 tweak to a $600 set of speakers. ain't happenin'.
for that kind of dough I could just buy better MLs (well...w/a little more).

all i'm after really is to add some gain to the whoofer. that what it needs. thats why the new ones have them...and sound 100x better than the ones that dont.
ymmv.

oh, and no. not a "real" mainer. NH native. lived in CO for 4 years and then moved to Maine in '01.
My kids are all "natural born mainers" though.

 

[SugarMedia]

Said the blind man , as he picked up his hammer and saw !!

...And so says the short cop with his big, shiny, new gun.