Tubes and SS

[Brad225]

Hi all, new to the forum. Just found the forum a week ago and have been reading every chance I get. There are a lot of great systems and interesting Loganians posting here.
For 2 channel I have had SL3s since 1998 and added a Cinema in 2001 for HT.
I have been hooked on electrostatic since the early 80's when I heard and bought a set of Accoustat 2+2's.
I have listened to different types of speakers with a couple different SS for years. I heard CLS's (don't know what version) a number of years ago and was mesmerised by them and have started looking for the right pair.
In the mean time I am content to listen to the SL3's but am going to try some tubes with them. I am currently using Aragon 24K pre, 2004 amp and D2A (all from 1991) to drive the SL'3.
I decided to buy some tube equipment and see how it sounds with my ML.
After reading on different forums about tubes in general and CLS's I bought a pair of ARC Classic 120's. I have not received them yet to try with current speakers and pre. (sorry this is getting long winded)
What my question for you members (at the risk of starting one of those never ending debates after asking for an opinion) is for those of you that now have tubes or have in the past or have heard a lot of tubes in the past.
Which piece of tube equipment had the most affect on the sound you heard? Having a tube pre with a given SS amp or the other way around. I probably will try both tube pieces at once and switch with the SS I have now but a guess I am still in the fact finding part of buying different gear and looking for as much information as I can get.
The worst that happens is I buy some equipment don't like it, sell it and try something else (all the while my very understanding wife shaking her head, smiling and saying "You really think that sounded different from what you already have"?) or stay with what I have.
Any input any of you have would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Brad

 

[Craig]

Hey Brad, welcome to the ML forum. There are a few members here that are also in the Tampa Bay area. In fact, Sleepysurf recently suggested we start a ML chapter of the Tampa Bay Listening Society (TBLS).

I've been using a tube pre with a tube amp and like the combination. SS gear sounds great as well but they are definitely an apples and oranges comparison and personal preference.

In my combining SS with tubes works very well. A tube pre with a SS amp is a great way to get the tube sound with the SS power to drive your hybrid electrostats. One of the best combinations in my opinion is to biamp with tubes powering the panels and SS for the cleanest bass on the woofers. However, you have to balance the power levels between the two. They don't need to be equal but they should be matched within limits so the woofer doesn't over power the panel and vice-versa.

I haven't had the opportunity to hear any ARC gear but have heard mostly good things about ARC tubed stuff. The ARC 120s are very powerful as tube amps go and should do very well on just about any model of ML especially CLS if you decide to go that route. I'd like to hear them when you get those amps setup.

in fact, check out Skaloumbakas's (President of the Audiophile club of Athens) system that uses ARC amps and CLS speakers.
http://aca.gr/pop_raptis.htm

The worst that happens is I buy some equipment don't like it, sell it and try something else

This is probably the best way to find out what you prefer and what works best for you. Then you to can post your review here and let us know how well the combination works.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Brad,
Welcome.
I think Craig's advice is something to consider. I have CLSiiZ's and I am using a tube preamp and a SS amp. I personally feel this is the best combination or compromise, if you will, to both worlds. I think one thing to consider is the type of music. If you listen to chamber music, string quartets, or violin concertos, or just something light in sound presentation, a tube amp will be fine. If you listen to various types of music, a SS amp may be a good option. Typically, but not always tubes amps do not always provide the "punch" in the bass regions that some are accustomed to hearing. This is one of those value judgments and subjective qualifications which cause argument and debates. Ultimately, it is your choice and it is what you hear not what we hear or suggest. My suggestion is to listen to what you have with the CLS's and see how you like it maybe it is just perfect.

Best of luck

Jeff

 

[aliveatfive]

I'm firmly on the tube-tube side. I had a Classic 60 driving Sequel IIs. It was underpowered. Your Classic 120 monoblocs should do much better. I believe that MLs really come to life with tube power amps. As far as preamps are concerned - that's the cherry on the top. I've used several ARC tube preamps. My current choice is a BAT VK51se. I understand the ARC REF3 is quite an accomplishment also.

 

[twich54]

Hello Brad, Congrats on the purchase of the Classic ARC 120's, an interesting Hybrid(tube / FET), assuming their in good working order they should prove worthy to your system, interesting note, they were power rated into a 16 ohm load, whereas most amps are rated into 8 ohm loads.

As far as tube and SS goes I myself have been a fan of ARC for a long time. My current set-up is focused around a tube pre and Class A SS amp, a combination that I find perfect for my tastes.

Craig makes a good point in the combination of tubes and SS, and while I love tubes throughout, the use of a quality Class "A" amp gives me almost all the tube "warmth" yet with the better bass capabilities that SS provides.

 

[ralflar]

Hi Brad. I think you'll like it here. As far as those "debates" you mentioned go, this is a place where such debates are almost guaranteed to remain friendly. Tubes vs solid state, cables, weird tweaks etc. have all been discussed here "flamelessly". Some believe, some don't, some come around, others won't. And that's OK. So ask away.

Regarding your question, I am in the suspicious-of-tailoring-sound-for-instance-through-tubes camp. I am also new to this hobby, and may come around later, but not for another while. My current preference is passive attenuation into high impedance solid state power amps which are stable into low impedance loads.

Most importantly: as soon as you have your new gear, post the pictures!

 

[risabet]

I too lean towards tubes/tubes. The tube pre/SS amp does give about 70% of the tube magic but the 30% add'l that you get from the tube amp is a critical percentage from the tube magic viewpoint.

 

[karma]

HI All,
Me too. I'm firmly in the tube, tube camp and also I'm an Audio Research fan.

Sparky

 

[roberto]

eternal debate SS and Tube.

Hola and very welcome Brad. It is my personal believeing that sound is a personal matter and taste. Warmth and life-like (tubes) versus precission. Many here uses tubed pre-amplifier and a very SS at the power. Why? Well, mostly is because SS can control better the low frequency, due to the lack of output transformers, but this does not means that the tube does not provide great bass. I have tubes...to my liking and ears, the right stage, the size of the instruments, the fun to listen the musician(s) playing, the air between instruments, the presence of them in my room, but with the right stage...I like the cymbals with the drummer, not the cymbals in front of me and the drummer at the back of the stage...no matter how clean they are. So again, everything is a matter of taste. Trust your ears and choose the one that you like most, besides, it is you who it is going to enjoy the ML sound thorugh what ever you have and like...in today´s market place there are a lot great sounding options...if you buy very low price, then it would be evident...I think that your Aragon (they where design with ML as a tool desing) is capable to give tons of great sound pleasure too...Dan D´Angostino, the guy who desing Krell was working too with Mondial,...at this time, ML was part of their design tool...happy listening,:cheers: Roberto.:musicnote:

 

[MiTT]

Welcome Brad!

I'm running a tubed pre-amp (BAT VK-31SE) with Solid State amp (BAT VK-6200 with 4 modules vertically bi-amping my ReQuests). I find the sound excellent, and would say that the most noticible difference is to be had with the addition of a tubed pre-amp to the system. That being said, I also had at one time some tubed mono-blocks (Rogue Audio M-120 SE's) that I parted with when I had a chance to pick up the VK-6200 for an incredible price. In a perfect world I'd do as Craig suggested with my system and keep the SS BAT driving the bottom end of my ReQuests and pick up a pair of BAT VK-150 SE monoblocks to drive the panel. That's the goal one day at least. Of course with your CLS's there isn't a low end driver to worry about...

As most would say here, trust your ears. I would add that the CLS's (and all ML's in fact) deserve and will appreciate the best electronics you can afford. Happy Listening!

 

[Brad225]

input-output

Thanks all of you for your information. I will just try some different combinations, see what works and report back. If you think of anything else please let me know.
Now on to the new dilemma. Me Aragon pre does not have Balanced out but the Classic 120's have balanced inputs on some and RCA inputs on others.
If I end up with balanced only is there such a connection as RCA to balanced
in either a cable or adapter. If so, any suggestions for good quality source.
I have e-mailed the seller of the 120's about the inputs but have yet to hear back. It would be oh so painful to receive new amps and have to use them for door stops until I have the right cabling in hand.
Brad

 

[Craig]

You can easily use RCA to balanced adapters. RCA to XLR cables exist but are harder to find. Electrocompaniet, BAT, Cardas make good adapters. You can also find Neutric brand at pro-audio stores (guitar shops). Brian Rovinsky at St Cecilia Sound in Clearwater can order a pair of Electrocompaniet adapters for about $50 which is great price. If you can't find any, let me know and I'll loan you my pair.

http://www.scsoundgallery.com/

 

[risabet]

Most cable companies will make XLR to RCA cables for you on a custom order basis. Try Audioquest and Zu Cable.

 

[kach22i]

When I purchased my tube amp and tube pre-amp the amp went in the system first- huge improvement. Then the pre-amp became avaliable from the store and it was installed. I liked the sound so much that I skipped the tube pre-amp mated with the SS amp I had.

Once you have had tube, you never go back.

One person who's opinion I respected told me way back that the amp enlarged the signal more than the pre-amp and therefore the amp has more of an influence on the sound.

 

[aliveatfive]

The very first time I heard Logans (Sequel IIs) back in '89 they were tube-amped. I'd never heard anything like them at that time and I still feel the very same way. Today: Summits powered by ARC REF110.

 

[Brad225]

Started looking at electronic sites and found adaptors from scary cheap to scary expensive. On Audiogon I found a thread talking about this type of adaptor. One of the people mentioned something about having to cut the shorting wire in the adaptor between pins 1 & 3 for it to work. There was no response in the thread so I don't know if it is correct. It doesn't seem you should have to alter the adaptor to do what it was made to do. What do you think?

 

[twich54]

Don't spend your money till you know for sure what outputs your 120's come with.

 

[aliveatfive]

Don't spend your money till you know for sure what outputs your 120's come with.

FYI - The Classic 120s originally came from ARC with RCAs. The V140s were a follow-up to that amp and the signifacant difference between them was the substitution of balanced inputs. ARC provided an update for owners of the Classic series to bring them up-to-date. I don't think too many owners took advantage as most preamps back them had single-ended inputs.

 

[MiTT]

Started looking at electronic sites and found adaptors from scary cheap to scary expensive. On Audiogon I found a thread talking about this type of adaptor. One of the people mentioned something about having to cut the shorting wire in the adaptor between pins 1 & 3 for it to work. There was no response in the thread so I don't know if it is correct. It doesn't seem you should have to alter the adaptor to do what it was made to do. What do you think?

Well, this is related to what I had been saying in a similar thread about balanced connections between components. If your pre-amp is single ended (RCA) and your power amp had Balanced (XLR) connections, you can use a simple adapter if the circuit in the power amp is single ended, but not if the circuit in the power amp is a true balanced (differential) circuit. As I mentioned in the other thread, balanced connectors on single ended circuits are little more than window dressing. I agree with twich - stop right now and find out more about what you're buying or you could make a very expensive mistake. Most if not all amps don't care much for a dead short - they become arc welders.

 

[twich54]

FYI - The Classic 120s originally came from ARC with RCAs. The V140s were a follow-up to that amp and the signifacant difference between them was the substitution of balanced inputs. ARC provided an update for owners of the Classic series to bring them up-to-date. I don't think too many owners took advantage as most preamps back them had single-ended inputs.

Understood, there is a picture on the ARC site that clearly shows a 120 with the balanced input, must be one of the updated ones, so there are a few out there !