Tools of the Trade

[FOUNTAIN]

Hey Guys and Gals, I wanted to share something that you may already be familiar with but I was not. After going back through Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound", I noticed he was using a laser measurement tool in his setups. I looked up the one he referred to in his book and it was quite expensive, but I noticed others that were not so pricey. So after receiving his quarter notes, highly recommended to sign up for and Jeff from Tonepub is a guest writer for the next issue, I replied to thank him for the good advice and ask him his opinion on his laser tool. He recommended the Bosch, http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=282537-353-DLR165K&lpage=none , and stated that it worked just as good as his more expensive Leica. In fact he now uses this one instead due to an accident with his Leica. So I went out and bought one because my wife is tired of holding our trusty measuring tape. I am somewhat fanatical at getting as close as possibe with my measuring, but there are times where I can only measure in the air without a floor to support the tape. I couldn't believe how much closer and accurate the laser tool was to some of my previous tape measurements. Especially going from the panel to the listening chair, I was off at least 2 to 3 inches. There was a slight learning curve while doing this since not everything is flat or level. So it took a little time to figure out what were the best spots on the speaker to measure from and get repeatable results. Depending on whether you measure from a different part of a slant or lifting the laser a little higher on the wall, this will give you different results. However, it is possible to get it right after you work out some type of system. My listening seat was what changed the most, but the speakers even had to be adjusted somewhat. I would venture to guess that with the measuring tape I had the speakers within an eighth on an inch, but with the laser tool I am at least within a sixteenth on an inch if not closer.

I believe the reason my chair was so far off was because I depended on the walls being parallel and my chair being consistent with its angles. I tried to get it as close as possible with a lot of effort but that was not nearly as accurate as shooting a laser at my listening chair while my wife sat in the middle and measuring the distance from the panel to her ear. Of course their is a variance/range rather than an exact number depending on whether you tilt your head or lean slightly foward. So I took several measurements and averaged it out from each speaker and the difference in sound was quite impressive. I should point out however that if you try this, your panels should be at the same angle or you will get false readings. But once they are set then this little extra measurement can add a lot to your listening pleasure.:music: Afterall if you are not sitting exactly between your panels then you will skew the soundstage to one side or another. This only ensures that you are as close as possible without depending on your walls or dangling a measuring tape in mid air from your Logans'. The cost of this tool was definitely worth it and once I figured it out it made things easier to check and confirm. Just a sidenote, in order to verify my results when it came to the distance from my head to the panels I did the flashlight/laser test and put the device on top of my head while seated in my listening chair. I then sighted the panel with the laser and took the measurement. I repeated this with the other panel being careful to use the same part of the panel. The measurements were extremely close to each other and I did this several times to confirm its reliability. This gave me confidence that I am as close as possible to being directly in between my Vantage's. Of course this tool has several features and many other uses, but if I only got this one type of use out of it then it was worth every penny. If you have other ideas or tools that you recommened then please share so we can all benefit.


Glen

 

[Brian Walsh]

Glen, an informative post, thanks. In addition to carefully measuring the speaker and listening positions, one aspect sometimes overlooked can be the room acoustics which can shift images. Wall openings, archways, doorways, windows and the like, especially on one side only, can significantly affect what you hear. My system is in the living room, adjacent to the dining room. Years passed before I did something about the lack of a wall on one side due to the two rooms being open to each other, building a wall with French doors between. Because the speakers (Sound Labs) radiate sound throughout the audible range in a figure-8 pattern as full range dipoles, the image can shift to the side without a wall at least from the plane of the speakers back to the wall behind the speakers, which I call the front wall. Although I had placed various room treatment products along that side to reduce image shift, once the wall was actually in place a very nice improvement was readily audible. Since that time I have taken other steps to make the room a bit more acoustically symmetric, although the large windows on the opposite side pose a small challenge but not overwhelming. Taming bass and other acoustic characteristics such as midrange and treble grain without taking the padded cell approach which robs the music of life and energy has made listening a much more pleasant, engaging experience.

 

[JonFo]

Glen, very interesting. thanks for sharing.

Brian, great points. Symmetry and reflection consistency are very important to a cohesive soundstage.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

In addition to carefully measuring the speaker and listening positions, one aspect sometimes overlooked can be the room acoustics which can shift images. Wall openings, archways, doorways, windows and the like, especially on one side only, can significantly affect what you hear.

I know exactly what you mean Brian. While my issue was not with open archways or hallways there was something else that definitely skewed my soundstage and made it sound narrow in comparison. The culprit was my audio rack in between my Vantages'. I still can't believe the difference because it makes no sense to me. How can speakers that are almost 6ft. off the rear wall and nearly 4ft. away from the audio rack centered cause such a huge difference in soundstaging and placement? I was floored when I moved it to the sidewall. Eventhough the rack is still in play by being on the left side of the room it does not even seem like it is confusing the sound at all compared to its previous location. Not even a comparison!!! Voices are completely believable, left and right seperation is outstanding, and the sound just creeps up the sidewall like I have never heard it before. I listened to Diana Krall Live in Paris this morning and the applause is just breathtaking. Everything seems to just float and the balance is unparalled from any previous setup that I have tried. Just like Jim Smith wrote, "a wall of sound" is what I now have. It still doesn't make sense but my ears are testifying to never again putting a rack in between my speakers if at all possible. I must give credit where credit is due and that is to having some type of reference as I had at JonFo's home:bowdown: and knowing that my system was missing something crucial. I'm not saying that I have arrived but it definitely was an "Aha!!!" moment. Also, after reading through Jim Smith's quarter notes he stated:


"I’ve recently voiced systems for several clients who – for various reasons – still had their equipment rack between their speakers. So naturally I became a bit hard-core and insisted on at least trying the rack on the side wall.

Most of these folks had a significant investment in their speaker cables. They didn’t want to have to buy longer (and more expensive) versions. My position is that affecting how the sound waves travel in the room is far more dramatic than an upgrade to better cables. In fact, I suggested that we try Home Depot or even ‘garden variety’ 16 gauge lamp cord.

My point? We haven’t learned how to repeal the laws of physics yet. Even longer ‘el cheapo’ speaker cables coming from a rack on the side wall will outperform the most exotic and expensive cables coming from a rack between the speakers!"


Now that was a strong enough statement for me to at least try it. And am I glad I ever did. Not only does it sound better, but after my wife and I put our minds to it we made it look just as good if not better than it was with the rack in the middle. Now that was a surprise to me because I knew for sure it was going to look totally hideous but once again I was wrong. Of course it took alot of time and moving, but if you really give it a go you may not only improve your listening enjoyment but also may be surprised in how you can make it look with some effort. Give it a fair shot and hear what you may be missing. In the end all you have lost was some time and maybe a few dollars by buying some cheap home depot wire.


Glen

 

[Audioseduction]

I always use a lazer plus a square to center my listening chair.

 

[repman]

I always used a length of string but this sounds so much more 2009 than that I think this is a great tip thanks

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Here is another useful tool that I am trying out in order to get my Vantages' on the exact same angle to one another. http://www.craftsman.com/shc/s/p_10155_12602_00948295000P?keyword=digital+torpedo&sLevel=0 Of course if you make your panels parallel to the floor then a simple bubble level will suffice, but if you want to lean them back a touch or even forward a touch, this is what I do, then one of these can be very useful. I will be trying mine out tonight after work to see how close they are. If they are not at the same angle then of course my measurements from panel to ear will be off. There are several digital levelers/angle meters that are much more expensive, but this seemed to be as accurate as the more expensive models (.1 degree). Anyway, just somthing else I thought I would pass along. I'll post tommorrow on how it worked.

Glen

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Glen,

I have a laser bullet level similar to the one you provided a link for. Great tool but for the more budget minded confirmed by repman, you can get really close with a piece of string weighted at the bottom. Tape the string in the exact same place on the top front of the panel and then measure to the same exact same location at the bottom of the panel. I did this first prior to verifying with the laser level. Checked within 0.2 degrees.

As far as removing anything between the speakers, I fully concur with your observations. I know some folks have no choice regarding the location of their equipment cabinet and / or television. But if there's anyway you can "open up" that area between the speakers, you will be richly rewarded with much better sonics.

Yes, one will need longer speaker cable, assuming the amp is located in the equipment rack, but the trade off is well worthwhile.

Highly recommended.

GG

 

[DrJRapp]

Let me ask you guys something. After you spend all your hard earned cash on lasers etc to get your speaker positioned with scientific precision, do you have any spare change left to buy a head brace to stay in position?

Give me a good old Stanley or Lufkin steel tape and five extra minutes and I'll match the laser any day. Oh by the way, as a builder I do have a pro grade laser measuring device. I use it to measure when speed is essential, not accuracy.

 

[tonepub]

You should be able to find the Leica online for about $150. Back when I got mine, the others weren't out and being a photographer, I just thought having a Leica anything was cool.

You can also use this Stanley model at home depot for 99.95 with excellent results:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100375433

The key to getting the ML's as close to each other on all three axis (especially the CLX) will actually give you a bigger sweet spot from where you are listening and a more lifelike sound overall, because they interact less with each other...

Another fun tool that works well since I wrote the original article on the laser measuring device and is CHEAP is the Dual Level for the iPhone. This is three bucks and incredibly handy, while being fairly accurate. Nice way to make sure the rake on your speakers is very close to start out and even to level turntables too.

 

[Gordon]

Glen, thanks for the write up. I went through the same thing a couple months back and could not believe the rack had that much impact either. It was also a "Aha" moment for me. Unfortunately, our living room would not support the rack on a side wall and had to regretably move it back. So I'm filing all this learning for the next house.

My wife is pretty understanding of this hobby I have but I don't think she would sit there and let me aim lasers at her head I would have to get one of those styrofoam heads and prop it on the chair!

Thanks again, Gordon

 

[C.A.P]

Let me ask you guys something. After you spend all your hard earned cash on lasers etc to get your speaker positioned with scientific precision, do you have any spare change left to buy a head brace to stay in position?

Give me a good old Stanley or Lufkin steel tape and five extra minutes and I'll match the laser any day. Oh by the way, as a builder I do have a pro grade laser measuring device. I use it to measure when speed is essential, not accuracy.

Couldn't have said it better. I would not waste $170 on something a good "Stanley'or Lufkin" can do. I guess reading them is difficult for some.

this is how its done the old fashioned way !
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7618

 

[FOUNTAIN]

My wife is pretty understanding of this hobby I have but I don't think she would sit there and let me aim lasers at her head I would have to get one of those styrofoam heads and prop it on the chair

:ROFL: After reading back through what I wrote I realized how silly we must have looked. :ROFL:

Thanks Gordon for your thread on this as well. When I decided to try and move my rack it was due in part to your posts when you moved your rack. I even posted and made the comment that as long as the speakers were pulled in front of the rack enough then the difference would be minimal. http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8307 Oooops!!! I was dead wrong, at least in my case. The difference was huge and am very glad to have reviewed your findings which also caused me to do this.

Glen

Glen

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Couldn't have said it better. I would not waste $170 on something a good "Stanley'or Lufkin" can do. I guess reading them is difficult for some.

this is how its done the old fashioned way !
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7618

Good job guys for doing it much cheaper than me. :bowdown: Nothing wrong with doing it the old fashion way. If you have some other cost saving tips please pass them along. I just wanted to pass along what I had found.

Glen

 

[FOUNTAIN]

You can also use this Stanley model at home depot for 99.95 with excellent results:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100375433

The key to getting the ML's as close to each other on all three axis (especially the CLX) will actually give you a bigger sweet spot from where you are listening and a more lifelike sound overall, because they interact less with each other...

Another fun tool that works well since I wrote the original article on the laser measuring device and is CHEAP is the Dual Level for the iPhone. This is three bucks and incredibly handy, while being fairly accurate. Nice way to make sure the rake on your speakers is very close to start out and even to level turntables too.

Thanks Jeff for the great tips and cheaper I might add!! I wonder if there is such an app for the Blackberry Storm since my wife has one? And as you stated about having all 3 axis equal to each other or at least real close does definitely open up the soundstage. After moving my rack out from the middle of my speakers the other big difference was getting both Vantages' even in respect to each other. Keep 'em coming guys!!

Glen

 

[JMAUSGP]

I suspect that getting any and all ML speakers as close to perfectly aligned to your ears as possible is very important. But as Jeff says, with the CLX it is absolutely crucial to get the most out of them.

I originally used a Lufkin tape measurer after just eyeballing the placement with my dealer. I guess I was too excited to hear the CLXs than to wait and do it right with a helper. So a couple of days after the original placement I proceeded to dial in the CLXs alone which I would guess many of us do work on our systems alone. And probably unlike some of your wives out there, my wife doesn't share my love of music or MLs, remember she didn't even notice the difference between the Summits and CLXs. So I can't really ask her for help because then she would ask questions and probably notice.

I can attest to the fact that doing all the measurements required to Dial your speakers in to within 1/16 of an inch is very hard to do alone with a standard Lufkin tape measurer amd with the CLX it may be harder still. I thought I was pretty close but after getting my hands on a Laser Measurement device, I found that I was off by a just over an inch and on one or two measurements and I was just over a half inch off on a couple of others. Yes, I did get a couple of my measurements to within a 1/4 inch.

I also found that my CLXs had settled into the carpet/concrete floor on their spikes and they needed to be raked properly again with a level. Then with the Laser measurer I could quickly get many more exact measurements and more importantly I could quickly and easily get all my measurements exact to within 1/16 of an inch.

Sometimes you are pretty close but you can't tell if you are truly exact or not because holding a tape measure in the air or against something that is over 6 feet away and in my case some were 12 feet away and that is not the easiest thing to do.

However with the Laser device, I could quickly and easily get exact measurements from all 6 speakers to the listening position and I could do it with accuracy to within 1/16 of an inch. And OBTW my listening chair can swivel, so I can be sure that the measurement is exact as I swivel the laser beam from my preferred listening position. I place the Laser device under my chin pressed all the way back against my throat very close to being in line with my ears. In fact, I would highly recommend a swivel chair when dialing in exact speaker placement on your multi channel system. You can go back to your your regular listening chair after your done but the swivel chair makes the measurement highly accurate as well as fast and easy.

I agee that doing a single pair of speakers with a Lufkin tape measurer alone is not as daunting a task as a multi-channel speaker set up, but still I would guess that even getting a single pair of speakers exactly measured to 1/16th of inch to your ear is not as easy, quick or probably as accurate as the method I just described, and certianly not by yourself.

Bottom line is, I though my system sounded great before the laser alignment, and others that heard it said it was mind blowing. But after the alignment with the laser measuring device I had one of those "Aha" moments.

All the ML speakers in the room completely dissappeared. It seems that before there was just enough interaction between them that they imparted some directionality to the sound. Don't get me wrong the sound stage was big and wide and deep, the music sounded great but until I lasered every single speaker to the sweet spot there was some directionality to the sound and when you have 6 speakers in a room that is not as good as it could be.

Anyways, the result of using a swivel chair and a laser measuring device uder my chin to align all 6 speakers to the sweet spot, my ears, was so impressive I just had to post. The cost of the Laser device was well worth the improvement in sound, for once the technology does make it easier and in this case delivers a better result than if I tried to do it the old fashion way, which I already did.

 

[Beakman]

I suspect that getting any and all ML speakers as close to perfectly aligned to your ears as possible is very important. But as Jeff says, with the CLX it is absolutely crucial to get the most out of them.

I originally used a Lufkin tape measurer after just eyeballing the placement with my dealer. I guess I was too excited to hear the CLXs than to wait and do it right with a helper. So a couple of days after the original placement I proceeded to dial in the CLXs alone which I would guess many of us do work on our systems alone. And probably unlike some of your wives out there, my wife doesn't share my love of music or MLs, remember she didn't even notice the difference between the Summits and CLXs. So I can't really ask her for help because then she would ask questions and probably notice.

I can attest to the fact that doing all the measurements required to Dial your speakers in to within 1/16 of an inch is very hard to do alone with a standard Lufkin tape measurer amd with the CLX it may be harder still. I thought I was pretty close but after getting my hands on a Laser Measurement device, I found that I was off by a just over an inch and on one or two measurements and I was just over a half inch off on a couple of others. Yes, I did get a couple of my measurements to within a 1/4 inch.

I also found that my CLXs had settled into the carpet/concrete floor on their spikes and they needed to be raked properly again with a level. Then with the Laser measurer I could quickly get many more exact measurements and more importantly I could quickly and easily get all my measurements exact to within 1/16 of an inch.

Sometimes you are pretty close but you can't tell if you are truly exact or not because holding a tape measure in the air or against something that is over 6 feet away and in my case some were 12 feet away and that is not the easiest thing to do.

However with the Laser device, I could quickly and easily get exact measurements from all 6 speakers to the listening position and I could do it with accuracy to within 1/16 of an inch. And OBTW my listening chair can swivel, so I can be sure that the measurement is exact as I swivel the laser beam from my preferred listening position. I place the Laser device under my chin pressed all the way back against my throat very close to being in line with my ears. In fact, I would highly recommend a swivel chair when dialing in exact speaker placement on your multi channel system. You can go back to your your regular listening chair after your done but the swivel chair makes the measurement highly accurate as well as fast and easy.

I agee that doing a single pair of speakers with a Lufkin tape measurer alone is not as daunting a task as a multi-channel speaker set up, but still I would guess that even getting a single pair of speakers exactly measured to 1/16th of inch to your ear is not as easy, quick or probably as accurate as the method I just described, and certianly not by yourself.

Bottom line is, I though my system sounded great before the laser alignment, and others that heard it said it was mind blowing. But after the alignment with the laser measuring device I had one of those "Aha" moments.

All the ML speakers in the room completely dissappeared. It seems that before there was just enough interaction between them that they imparted some directionality to the sound. Don't get me wrong the sound stage was big and wide and deep, the music sounded great but until I lasered every single speaker to the sweet spot there was some directionality to the sound and when you have 6 speakers in a room that is not as good as it could be.

Anyways, the result of using a swivel chair and a laser measuring device uder my chin to align all 6 speakers to the sweet spot, my ears, was so impressive I just had to post. The cost of the Laser device was well worth the improvement in sound, for once the technology does make it easier and in this case delivers a better result than if I tried to do it the old fashion way, which I already did.

Your chin may have moved a little enough to skew those measurements. I'd use some sort of brace to hold the instument on the chair and use the offset measurement for correction. Plus, are the walls perfectly plumb and square in the room? They can be out as far as an inch, especially in the corners and to ignore reflected wave distance would be detrimental given all the primary measurements. Ideally, a theodolite and line lasers for each speaker would solve the corundrum of reference line in relation to as-built.

 

[JMAUSGP]

Your chin may have moved a little enough to skew those measurements. I'd use some sort of brace to hold the instument on the chair and use the offset measurement for correction. Plus, are the walls perfectly plumb and square in the room? They can be out as far as an inch, especially in the corners and to ignore reflected wave distance would be detrimental given all the primary measurements. Ideally, a theodolite and line lasers for each speaker would solve the corundrum of reference line in relation to as-built.

You might be right but the cool thing is that your ears will tell you straight away when you have it right. And even if it takes a couple of tries it only takes seconds with a laser measurement device.

Buying one or more Theodilites for your speakers could run into the thousands, I guess my point was these new laser measurement devices are a bit pricey when compared to a low tech tape measurer but at least for me working alone, trying to get the placement of my MLs as close to the sweet spot as possible, well it just works better for me than a tape measurer.

And the sound I am getting now in the sweet spot is proof for me. Nothing more or less, oh by the way, theodolites are on sale.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200358300_200358300

 

[FOUNTAIN]

You might be right but the cool thing is that your ears will tell you straight away when you have it right. And even if it takes a couple of tries it only takes seconds with a laser measurement device.


And the sound I am getting now in the sweet spot is proof for me.

I found this to be the case with my setup as well. While it is not a necessity to have this tool it did meet the need in my situation. As for the walls not being square, this is something I had to take into account although the front of the room seems to be spot on. It's the farther back you go that the side wall seems to be off a tad. This was one of the reasons I felt the laser measuring tool worked so well for me because I could measure directly from my listening chair to the panels or vice versa without a sagging tape measure or centering my chair in the room using the side walls. Of course the string method that was brought up probably is just as accurate, but this way it allows me to quickly check without the assistance of my wife. And believe me she loves that. Thanks for sharing guys good stuff!!

 

[JMAUSGP]

Fountain,

Thanks for bringing this little gem to my attendtion. I am pretty sure I would not have pursued it if I had not read your post.

I have 3 complete ML multi-channel systems and I can not and will not get my wife involved for health reasons, my health. What she doesn't know won't hurt me.

The laser measurement makes it all a breeze and it happens so quick she doesn't know I am doing it with the Logans.......measuring them that is.:devil: