The Depth Adventure - Are You Experienced?

[TomD]

It finally happened! I am the owner of a Depth.:music:

When I took this one out of the box undamaged and plugged it in and knew it was working, i was hopping around like a prissy little schoolgirl.

This is my second attempt at acquiring this sub as some of you may remember from my posting of a bad experience on eBay (http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9904A).

As you may also know from my postings, i am not exactly God’s gift to the audiophile community. When the Depth was first plugged in it was via the LFE output. I thought that the base was much cleaner but lacked the impact that I was expecting. It turned out that the LFE was set to off on my processor and I was hearing only the Aeon I speakers.

Well that was cleared up and now the Infinity is relegated to LFE and the Depth is for front end listening. By far the system is used more so for stereo and 5.1 music DVDs. The dedicated LFE is nice although that track is not contained in the music videos I played so far. I did check out the emergence of the Martians in War of the Worlds and the first battle scene in Captain and Commander. I can tell having the dedicated LFE channel makes a real difference. The Infinity is a great air-mover but lacks the speed to deliver a good musical experience. It has now found its niche.

So now the crux of the matter. The Depth’s setup options are almost limitless in its possibilities. I searched this forum for advice. After reading I am still hoping for some shared experience.

How is the phasing used? Is it relative to the position of the speakers to the sub along some axis, like 180 if behind or 90 if on the side or is it relative to the waves coming from each speaker? I am currently using the 270 setting as the others do not seem to make a difference. Will this change if it is moved or if once optimized is it for any physical location?
Should the cutoff be set to 30Hz as recommended by ML? It seems too low and I have it set higher but have not settled on where just yet (35 or 45Hz).
Should the output for the sub be set to 100% on the processor and lowered on the sub, or is it better to keep the processor output lower and increase the sub’s output?
I am also searching for the best position. Do all these parameters need to be changed each time the sub is moved? Does anyone routinely change any parameters for different recordings or is it a set and forget approach? The possibilities seem endless!

I know, let my ears be my guide, which is true. It’s just that I am hoping for someone to share their experience to help me and others like me not to miss something.

Thanks all.

 

[MOON]

Hi Tom,

Congradulations on the depth. Unfortunately , I sold mine this year to put the funds to another larger upgrade.I plan on buying 2 depth i's at some point.

To answer your questions. I found I got the best bass with the depth right in the center between my odyssey's. The blend with the speakers was seamless and I had far better bass with it in the center compared to being off to one side, etc.

When , I say right between my ML's, I also mean the same distance off the back wall, so it is on an equal plane with the front of your main speakers. I had it come in at 35hz,90 phase. Here is an older picture before I sold the depth which went towards acoustic treatments. I did find the depth greatly inhanced the music experience as well as movies.I changed my racking around also since these pictures having it lower to the floor made for a better soundstage. Enjoy the sub!!!

I can't wait to do the 2 depth i's at some point.

 

[SteveInNC]

I started with one Depth, and eventually added another. In my experience, you just have to try some things and see what sounds best. Use some music, preferrably 2-channel, that you are familiar with. Like Tom, I found that in my particular setup, phase was set to something other than 0. Although the Depth will still sound good even if the phase is off, you will be able to tell the difference because the bass will tighten-up considerably when you get the phase set right. Moving the Depth around will likely require adjusting the phase, depending on how far and to where you move the unit.

With both Depths in place now, flanking the outside of my Ascent i, my phase is set to 0. I also now have a receiver with Audyssey which will do some of the compensation itself. The receiver feeds through a Musical Fidelity A5 Int to drive the fronts. I use the LFE output from the receiver, with the receiver mode set to run both music and effects through LFE, with mains set to "small".

I suggest setting up the sub with such processing bypassed until you get the best sound you can with phasing and positioning, then let the prepro clean up residual issues like bothersome reflections.

 

[MOON]

Hi Steve,

Can you tell me the differences from going from one depth to using two of them. I have always read 2 subs are better than one.

Cheers, Greg

 

[crooner12]

I just picked up a mint-condition Depth i, and I love it. It compliments my modest front-end quite nicely. I've got NHT Classic 3 monitors with an NAD integrated, MusicHall DAC and a mac mini as a music server with all ALAC lossless files.

I've heard really great bass before (e.g. Thors Hammer, JL Gotham, Velodyne DD-15/12) and although it won't win in an SPL contest, the bass quality and extension is really impressive. For my size room (15X18 open to the kitchen and halls) it's enough to feel bass waves in my couch and clothes.

For music, you can tell that it's a serious subwoofer. It's hard to describe, but the bass just seems deeper and more blended with my mains. None of that boomy resonant bass, but just pure, ultra-deep bass. I love it.

Prior to the Depth i, I had the SVS SB12-Plus. Also, a great subwoofer, but it did not extend as deep or blend in with music as much. It stood out more. Impact and SPL was similar.

 

[SteveInNC]

Hi Steve,

Can you tell me the differences from going from one depth to using two of them. I have always read 2 subs are better than one.

Cheers, Greg

Well, the theory is that the sound from subs is hard to localize mentally, at least for LFE, but I could always seem to tell that it was coming from a particular direction. Adding the second sub neutralized that. I don't think that it really improved the punch that much over a single sub, but it definitely feels more balanced.

As far as using the sub in combination with the mains for music, it greatly improves the overall impact of the music, particularly for stuff that I listen to like dynamic jazz and well-engineered/miked rock. For a higher-end speaker like a Summit, this might be less of an issue. Going from no sub to one sub is a big improvement. Going from one sub to two is a refinement.

 

[JRace]

Hi Steve,

Can you tell me the differences from going from one depth to using two of them. I have always read 2 subs are better than one.

Cheers, Greg

...and three subs are better than two...and so on!

It all comes down to your room and your main speakers (ie: where you cross over to the subs).

Mostly 2 subs (when locate din different spots within the room) help smooth out the response.

It is helpful to think of the bass bouncing off each wall. The sound leaving the sub is the direct wave, and the sound bouncing off the wall is the reflected wave. When the reflected wave hits the direct wave you can get cancellation or boost. The more sources of direct bass waves the more evenly these interact within the room.

While it is true the human hearing system is not able to localize low frequency sound (<100Hz) we often hear upper harmonics, furniture or pictures rattling, and if the sound bounces or collects in certain parts we can detect the increased intensity coming from one location over another. This leads our brains to try and place the source where the intensity is the greatest.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
I too am a Depth Owner and could not be happier. I definitely spent the first Month repositioning the Subwoofer and tweaking before settling on a location.

Going from a large Paradigm Subwoofer, when I met the guy I purchased my Depth from, I thought I made a terrible mistake as it looked so small. However, lifting it in my Car made me feel a great deal better.

I purchased mine from a former Sound Advice Employee who had never even hooked it up. He also threw in an 3.5 Meter Audioquest Sub-1 Cable all for 700 Dollars. Could not believe how good a deal I got.

I am really happy that you finally got a functioning Depth. FWIW, when I called ML, they told me I could add a Depth i for Dual Subwoofers with no compatibility issues.

With the "i" Revisions, it was really only the Descent which underwent a major change going from a single 400 Watt Amplifier to three 250 Watt Amplifiers.

With the Depth i and Grotto i, it was revised Cosmetics, slightly more powerful Amplifier (50 Watts), and a tweak to the Servo Circuit.
Cheers,
JJ

 

[TomD]

To answer your questions. I found I got the best bass with the depth right in the center between my odyssey's. The blend with the speakers was seamless and I had far better bass with it in the center compared to being off to one side, etc.

I am still familiarizing myself with the sound and, believe it or not, have not yet found the best position/setting. This takes some time and i haven't been able to devote enough of it lately.

My configuration is such that the center speaker (Cinema i) is blocked if the Depth is placed in the center. So, i want to ask, before getting into some reconfiguring, if the Cinema i can be placed on top of the Depth using the Cinema's stand. Is there some reason why this should not be done? I cannot think of a reason but that does not mean that one does not exist. Is anyone using a similar approach?

 

[TomD]

If anyone is still interested -

There has not been any real difference that i can detect thus far by moving the unit or changing the phase. However, the 25Hz adjustment makes a difference. When tilted even slightly into the positive, the unit really comes alive.

I am not sure what this means or why there is no change, or at best a barely noticeable change, when switching the phase.

 

[Beakman]

I strongly suggest getting a digital EQ with microphone input and metering capabilities. (yes, like a Behringer DEQ2496 or similar). You don't have to have in the signal path when all is done but it makes a great analytical tool for the subs to really find the tweaks needed on the controls. You can probably get the same use from any number af sound analyzing programs, but an EQ will give you a finer adjustment of frequencies if you do decide to put it in the signal path.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
While something like the DEQ2496 would work well with the Depth, I have been quite pleased with Audyssey MultEQ XT handling the DSP of the Depth. The differences between MultEQ XT engaged and off are not subtle.

It really is the Low Frequencies that Audyssey MultEQ XT seems to make the most difference. Moreover, if all Speakers are XO'ed to 80 Hz, the Subwoofer Channel has 8 times more filtering. http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large/

With the Panel/Woofer Transition being at best 250 Hz (Prodigy), I have used an 80 Hz Crossover with my Vantage/Stage/Vista/Depth setup with excellent results.
Cheers,
JJ

 

[TomD]

Thanks for the suggestions.

As of now, i am concerned about placing anything into the signal path. I will look into what you suggest and see what options are available.

Although this thread is about optimizing the sub's output, i really am not complaining about how it currently sounds; it actually sounds fantastic. Not sure why the phase is not making much of a difference, maybe its the room.

I have to say that i am a bit skeptical about that article on setting the speakers to small by cutting them off at 80Hz. I wanted the sub to boost the lower end and give that kick that the Aeon I's lack. However,the speaker's sound quality is not an issue for me and i see no reason to cut them off and let the sub take over completely at the lower end. Its all a balancing act i suppose.

That being said, i plan to experiment with the concept, keeping in mind that my emphases is on stereo listening and not 5.1 surround, which is the focus of the article. Having a sub devoted to LFE as is possible with the addition of the Depth greatly enhanced the movie experience already. Any enhancements from the Depth from now i hope to be to stereo listening.

I will not be able to get to anything until the first week in October. Hope you don't mind my seeking more advice after that time.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
I suppose it comes down to whatever sounds best to you. I am pretty sure JonFo XO's his Speakers around 60 Hz or higher.

With the Panel only going down to around 350 Hz on most Models and the fact that the best place acoustically for our Speakers is seldom the best place for a Subwoofer, it makes a great deal of sense to me to crossover at 80 Hz.
Cheers,
JJ