Super tweeter
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This is not a good idea.
These mono-point tweeters have power decay characteristics that are not coherent with the line source.
That is, the tweeter will sound louder the closer you get to at about twice the rate as the electrostat.
Therefore, there is one, and only one, distance at which you can level match a tweeter like that with an electrostat.
Get a closer to the panel, and the tweeter is overpowering at twice the rate of distance.
I’ve never been a fan of mix and match line-source / mono-points. Do one or the other but not both.
It’s one of weaknesses of the hybrid bass bin as well, as once one gets above 80 Hz or so, the mono-point vs line source decay pattern starts affecting the energy balance.
A good example is how well a CLX does mid-bass is partially due to the fact that the mid-bass is now a line source as well.
Besides, and ESL does highs very well, why bother with an extra tweeter?
These mono-point tweeters have power decay characteristics that are not coherent with the line source.
That is, the tweeter will sound louder the closer you get to at about twice the rate as the electrostat.
Therefore, there is one, and only one, distance at which you can level match a tweeter like that with an electrostat.
Get a closer to the panel, and the tweeter is overpowering at twice the rate of distance.
I’ve never been a fan of mix and match line-source / mono-points. Do one or the other but not both.
It’s one of weaknesses of the hybrid bass bin as well, as once one gets above 80 Hz or so, the mono-point vs line source decay pattern starts affecting the energy balance.
A good example is how well a CLX does mid-bass is partially due to the fact that the mid-bass is now a line source as well.
Besides, and ESL does highs very well, why bother with an extra tweeter?
tonepub
Senior Member
exactly.....
Not a problem for me
I never tried it. My hearing rolls off at about 15KHZ.
What Jonfo says seems to make sense. However there are some fast exotic tweeters out there. Levels can be matched.
I think the best argument against it is that it's overkill given the Logans broad treble response. For the money it might be better idea to move up the Logan food chain.
That's why I provided a link to this guy. So you can discuss it with him.
Gregadd:afro:
I never tried it. My hearing rolls off at about 15KHZ.
What Jonfo says seems to make sense. However there are some fast exotic tweeters out there. Levels can be matched.
I think the best argument against it is that it's overkill given the Logans broad treble response. For the money it might be better idea to move up the Logan food chain.
That's why I provided a link to this guy. So you can discuss it with him.
Gregadd:afro:
I never tried it. My hearing rolls off at about 15KHZ.
What Jonfo says seems to make sense. However there are some fast exotic tweeters out there. Levels can be matched.
I think the best argument against it is that it's overkill given the Logans broad treble response. For the money it might be better idea to move up the Logan food chain.
That's why I provided a link to this guy. So you can discuss it with him.
Gregadd:afro:
Greg, my point is: levels can't be matched.
They will only ever match at one distance. get further away, and the tweeter will decay in volume at 6dB per doubling of distance, whereas the ESL panel (being a line source) will decay at 3dB per doubling of distance.
Dispersion characteristics are also totally unmatched.
I'm a big fan of ribbons, but only when used as an entire line source, such as in Scaena or the big Wisdom Audio lines.
Or use a ribbon as part of a monopole, point-source dynamic speaker system. But trying to integrate with a line-source ESL? Not a good idea.
BTW- what problem is this trying to solve?
Irishtom
Well-known member
I wonder how much that really matters indoors and in a typical living room? IME it doesn't seem to.
Alright. Lets Dance!
First the level and dispersion characteristics of any speaker can be matched with a good equalizer.
If you doubt that, then find a Bose Oultet Store and get them to do a home theatre demo for you. They actually put a a wooden box over thier mini speaker. Level and dispersion is restored. It is done automatically by computer. I visited the store in Leesburg. Virginia.
Your own argument says thier is a point where the levels match.
I do not recall advocating the use of a super tweeter. The author of this thread asked if anyone had any experience using a super tweeter. I sought to connect him with someone who did. For the most part I am not a tweeker. I'm an up grader.
What problem are they trying to solve? I do not know. From what I can deduce they are using the super tweeter as a high pass filter. By relieving their tweeter from the labor of responding to the highest frequencies the tweeter can do a better job of working in its true range.
Okay. Are we good ?
Gregadd:afro:
First the level and dispersion characteristics of any speaker can be matched with a good equalizer.
If you doubt that, then find a Bose Oultet Store and get them to do a home theatre demo for you. They actually put a a wooden box over thier mini speaker. Level and dispersion is restored. It is done automatically by computer. I visited the store in Leesburg. Virginia.
Your own argument says thier is a point where the levels match.
I do not recall advocating the use of a super tweeter. The author of this thread asked if anyone had any experience using a super tweeter. I sought to connect him with someone who did. For the most part I am not a tweeker. I'm an up grader.
What problem are they trying to solve? I do not know. From what I can deduce they are using the super tweeter as a high pass filter. By relieving their tweeter from the labor of responding to the highest frequencies the tweeter can do a better job of working in its true range.
Okay. Are we good ?
Gregadd:afro:
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Jon is right. You can match them for one point only. Any closer or further than the point you match them to, and the levels will be off. So if you want a perfect match for one seat in the house, then you could do it. But every other seat would have level-matching issues.
Personally, I don't see any benefit to matching a super tweeter with ML's for the O.P. But then I have never done it, so I can't speak from experience.
amey01
Well-known member
I didn't realise this - how does it work with our non-line-source woofers then? And subwoofers? How do they integrate with the panel?
As for hearing roll-off - it is not necessarily the actual base harmonic "supertweet" you want to hear, but its effect on all the other frequencies of which the ultrasonic harmonics are a part. This is the main reason for integrating supertweeters.
It is not easy. That is why in the Summit, ML integrated a down firing (read omnidirectional) woofer, I believe. And in their top-end subwoofers, they use an omnidirectional radiation pattern. I believe they have also developed some crossover technologies in the new Summit X and Spire to help with this level matching issue around the crossover point for a more seamless lower midrange.
tonepub
Senior Member
I guess what I don't understand is why you would want to introduce another driver (especially on top) with the CLS, because isn't the reason you bought it in the first place was the seamlessness that the speaker offers?
Brian Walsh
Well-known member
Hi Tom,
Long time. Hope you're enjoying life back in Chicago.
Addressing your comment:
It does. Hear a line source that's full range and you'll understand. I listen to acoustically crossoverless dipoles all the time. High frequencies are very directional, which emphasizes the differences. Speakers designed for even frequency response at a certain level at a typical listening distance, say 85 dB at 10 feet, often sound quite a bit different at different distances when different radiating characteristics are used such as described above, not to mention at different SPLs.
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amey01
Well-known member
It holds interest for me - not because we can HEAR the tweeter (because ultrasonics are way above what most of us can hear) but because of the effect it has on the lower frequencies that we do hear.
So in theory the seamlessness of the CLS is unaffected, but the sound is enhanced - I reserve judgement until actually hearing it though!
amey01
Well-known member
Very interesting. So how does omnidirectional radiation differ from line source or point source?
I still don't really understand why the negativity on supertweeters (because of level matching) when we (those of us without Summits anyway) deal with this issue every day??
Yes the levels and chahracterisitcs can be matched..
"Parametric equalizer (or parametric "EQ") is an electronic multi-band variable equalizer used in sound recording and live sound reproduction. Parametric equalizers allow audio engineers to control the three primary parameters of an internal band-pass filter which are amplitude, center frequency and bandwidth. Bandwidth is typically labeled "Q" on the unit, which stands for Quality. The amplitude of each band can be controlled, and the center frequency can be shifted, and widened or narrowed."
Two speakers can be matched despite having different efficiencies and radiation patterns, using a parametric equalizer.
Moreover once the level is matched they would have equal decay patterns assuming the wave is traveling through the same medium(air).
Now we can argue forever about the quality of the results Or whether it is a worthwile endeavor. But let's not tell people erroneously that it can't be done.
Gregadd:afro:
"Parametric equalizer (or parametric "EQ") is an electronic multi-band variable equalizer used in sound recording and live sound reproduction. Parametric equalizers allow audio engineers to control the three primary parameters of an internal band-pass filter which are amplitude, center frequency and bandwidth. Bandwidth is typically labeled "Q" on the unit, which stands for Quality. The amplitude of each band can be controlled, and the center frequency can be shifted, and widened or narrowed."
Two speakers can be matched despite having different efficiencies and radiation patterns, using a parametric equalizer.
Moreover once the level is matched they would have equal decay patterns assuming the wave is traveling through the same medium(air).
Now we can argue forever about the quality of the results Or whether it is a worthwile endeavor. But let's not tell people erroneously that it can't be done.
Gregadd:afro:
tonepub
Senior Member
Why would you want to screw around with any of this in the first place? Adding a parametric EQ, unless it was an extremely high quality studio unit or a Cello Audio Pallette, would cause so many more phase and distortion problems it would still not really work terribly well.
So you buy 10k (at least) worth of gear to Kluge some supertweeters onto a pair of CLSs.
Chewbacca. That just doesn't make any sense.
So you buy 10k (at least) worth of gear to Kluge some supertweeters onto a pair of CLSs.
Chewbacca. That just doesn't make any sense.
This is simply false. A line source and a point source have different dispersion patterns and the amplitude of each will drop off at a different rate. A parametric equalizer is not going to change that. As said before, you can match them to a point, but they will not continue to stay matched beyond that point.
The Intensity of sound from the point source speaker falls off as the inverse square of the distance, because it travels as an expanding sphere. The intensity of sound from a line source, which travels as an expanding cylinder, is inversely proportional to distance (not distance squared, as in a point source). A parametric equalizer can do amazing things to flatten out the frequency response, but they can not change the laws of physics in relation to the physical properties of the speaker driver.
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