sunfire and logans, not good?

[aerius007]

I am curious as to what others think of their sunfire processors with logans and 2 channel listening. I have a theater grand with a bat vk-500 for power going to a set of vistas. I have to say I am not that crazy about the setup. I am hoping that the problem is with the cheap panasonic dvd player I am using. I have a rotel 1072 coming in this week that will handle all my 2 channel listening.

The problem is the soundstage is ok, not great, but most of the vocals are way over-done, almost like people are singing into a steel drum. I have the logans at least 3 feet out from the back wall and tried many different positions and still the same problem. For the money that is in this system it should be much better. I have good cables and a strong line conditioner so what gives? Like I said I have a new cd player coming next week, I just find it hard to believe that it will make that much of a improvement.

 

[Rich]

I think the Sunfire is a good multi-channel processor, but it is, in my opinion, not on the same level as your BAT Amp as far as quality two-channel listening is concerned. I think your source component is an important upgrade (as they say: garbage in = garbage out, and it all starts with the source).

However, to get the true listening value contained in your speakers and amp, I think you will need to upgrade to a high quality two-channel preamp. I imagine a good tube preamp in your system would knock your socks off. Think along the lines of Audio Research, BAT, Conrad Johnson, Cary, Modwright, etc. If you search, you will find many posts on this site discussing the importance of a good preamp and discussions about different brands. Good luck with your upgrades.

 

[Cherian]

I agree with Rich. The Sunfire is a good Multi channel processor, not as good for 2 channel. I have listened to the Sunfire tube 2 channel pre and the sound stage was so much more open than my Theater Grand.

 

[wink]

The Sunfire is a great multi-channel pre/pro. Two channel is VERY good as well running Sunfire amps, as they are made for each other. I had a McCormack line drive TLC-1 as a two channel pre and it didn't match tonally as well as the Sunfire pair does. In other words what I'm saying is it's not the pre/pro or your amp but the match of the two.

Try a BAT pre for your control source and you'll notice a big difference. Or try a Sunfire amp and you'll see a huge improvement as well. Oh and make sure your running your two channel "source direct" as well.

Good liuck!
Dan

 

[aerius007]

I wont make any conclusions until I get the new cd player in place but I think I will probably sell the sunfire in the very near future. I have a yamaha rxv-992 that I have used for years and will probably go back to it. I will then take the money from the sunfire and put it towards a BAT preamp, hopefully a vk-5i. There is one I can buy now for $1750.

The Sunfire looks great but I think the compliments will stop there. The yamaha is easier to adjust from movie to movie and since it is sitting on the floor not being used I should part from the sunfire. I hoped that having XLR connections and having a retail of $3000 would be good for 2 channel but you know what they say "hope in one hand and sh#$ in the other and see which one fills up first." The harsh vocals and lack of soundstage have to go.

Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.

 

[JonFo]

It would take a lot to make a huge, noticeable difference for a pre-amp to not handle 2ch well, as it’s basically a bypass with level control.

It’s more than likely you do not like the room acoustics in 2ch or your speaker placement is conducive to the brightness you complain about.

Too often people complain about equipment, when the majority of the time it will be room acoustics (or the speakers themselves) that are at fault.

Not saying a Sunfire pre is the worlds best 2ch pre or anything, it’s just it’s not what I’d look at first…

 

[aerius007]

The video part of this system is a toshiba 50" projection. Any idea if taking this out of the equation would make a big change? I want to put a 50" plasma instead and was wondering if that would change the sound of the speakers. The projection is a big box in the middle of the speakers so who knows how it is effecting the sound.

 

[sleepysurf]

Room acoustics play a LOT more important role than most folks think. Having a large RPTV between your speakers can certainly play havoc with your soundstage, imaging, and even tonality. Pulling the speakers out further, beyond the plane of the RPTV can help, as can throwing a blanket over the TV, but only to a certain extent.

I'm cursed with having BOTH a large RPTV and multimedia wall unit between my Summits, and likewise plan to eventually replace with a wall-mounted flat screen. In the meantime, I constructed an acoustic fabric cover for the RPTV, which eliminates the nasty reflections off the large glass screen. It has made my system "tolerable" until I can say adios to both the wall unit and RPTV.

More details about blankets, etc on this thread...
http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=2754

 

[aerius007]

I think alot of what I am hearing is too much volume for the room. Some recordings are great and other are so so. For instance Nirvana unplugged sound like it should, I wouldnt say the vocals are understated, they just blend in with the instruments. But Diana Krall's cd sounds a little stressed, even more so at higher volume levels. Almost like the producer thought she should stand out more, but in this case I think less is more. I would prefer her voice make me listen and draw me in, not put me back in my chair.

Maybe they should just start paying me a few hundred thousand to produce this stuff. I still really think that a BAT preamp would do my system alot more justice than this sunfire 5.1. Jonfo stated that the preamp is basically a bypass with a level control but I think that is a little simple of an explanation. Couldnt that theory be applied to everything past the source? From what I remember the preamp multiplies the signal more than the amp which would give it a greater impact on the sound. I do however agree that room acoustics play a major part in what we hear.

 

[JohnP]

cheap panasonic dvd player I am using.

Which TG do you have? Honestly it's really not fair to judge the Sunfire's capabality when your using a "cheap" dvd player as your music source IMO. I have a Sunfire TG 3 and Odyssey's but I'm using a Ah! Njoe Tjoeb cd player and the sound is very very nice. See how much of an improvement you see when you add the true cd player, then work from there. As mentioned above room acoustics can make a huge difference, that is where I'd focus next.

 

[timm]

just one man's opinion - compared my TG III to a Wadia CD player hooked directly into the amp (Wadia had volume control). We a/b'd it to the 8 channel inputs which is a direct by-pass on the TGIII. The differences were ever so slight - without a pre-amp in the loop. I think that speaks very well for the TG III - in my opinion. This was 2 channel only - of course.

What you are explaining sounds like a 'room thing' to me.

 

[timm]

I think alot of what I am hearing is too much volume for the room. Some recordings are great and other are so so. For instance Nirvana unplugged sound like it should, I wouldnt say the vocals are understated, they just blend in with the instruments. But Diana Krall's cd sounds a little stressed, even more so at higher volume levels. Almost like the producer thought she should stand out more, but in this case I think less is more. I would prefer her voice make me listen and draw me in, not put me back in my chair.

Maybe they should just start paying me a few hundred thousand to produce this stuff. I still really think that a BAT preamp would do my system alot more justice than this sunfire 5.1. Jonfo stated that the preamp is basically a bypass with a level control but I think that is a little simple of an explanation. Couldnt that theory be applied to everything past the source? From what I remember the preamp multiplies the signal more than the amp which would give it a greater impact on the sound. I do however agree that room acoustics play a major part in what we hear.

More - for what it's worth -- Yes - I have 2 Krall discs - and yes it is recorded that way. Her voice is out front - sounds that way on my system (Odysseys/Descent/Sunfire TGIII/Sunfire Sig) - AND it sounded that way when I listened to it on the Summits + MAC gear. It is my belief that your speakers are going to get you 90% of the way there - and the amp/pre/source are going to do the other 10%. Once it gets to the speaker - the speaker is going to to stamp it with its sonic signature anyway. So, getting a new pre may make a small difference - but it isn't going to knock your socks off - especially when compared to the Sunfire. You are using the 8 channel pass thru -- right?
My actual order of importance for the system would be 1)speakers 2)amp 3)source 4) pre 5)cables....

 

[timm]

Which TG do you have? Honestly it's really not fair to judge the Sunfire's capabality when your using a "cheap" dvd player as your music source IMO. I have a Sunfire TG 3 and Odyssey's but I'm using a Ah! Njoe Tjoeb cd player and the sound is very very nice. See how much of an improvement you see when you add the true cd player, then work from there. As mentioned above room acoustics can make a huge difference, that is where I'd focus next.

John - what source did you have prior to the Tjoeb - which is tubed right? - and I agree with your assessment on altering the source in this scenario. Can you explain the diffs you heard going from your prior source to the current one? thx. tim.

 

[aerius007]

The problem might be solved. I just bought a pair of used aerius i from a friend for $700, those are going to be the mains in my HT. I am taking out the sunfire TG along with the BAT amp. Getting worried yet? I have a Yamaha processor that I will use for HT that also has enough power in it to run the rears. That leaves me with the Acurus amp to power the aerius and cinema center.


I am then taking the Vistas and Bat amp upstairs to use for a two channel system. I am in the process of getting a tubed BAT vk-5i for the preamp so that should be a huge improvement. I will let you know what the differances are.