SUMMIT X in the House

[tsmooth]

That's the key to the kingdom. I submit that the sound of both are close enough that it will be damn near impossible to make a comparison of the two unless they are sitting side by side with the same connected material and the same media. Even then their slightly different placement will have it's effect. Therefore, any comparison based on one's "memory" of what a speaker sounds like becomes very, very subjective.

I recently got a brief listen to a brand new (not broken in) pair of Summit X hooked up to equipment that is very different than mine. I would really be hard pressed to compare it at all to my Summits that I listen to daily. Differring source equipment can and will make two identical speakers sound different.

Additionally, it would be hard to beat the Summit factoring in the current price point of $6-7K. You know, even my Vistas sound good when they are not in the same room as the higher end models. I think the people with Summits and Spires should be very happy, and unless you need to have the latest panel / woofer crossover technology and a few grand lying around, you can convince yourself to go either way.

 

[Gordon Gray]

A request from ML Corporate

What I would like to know are the hardware differences between the original and the X.

It's apparent that the x-over has been redesigned but the panel remains the same size.

Are the bass drivers / amps new?

Has the woofer module changed?

Have the stat spacers been redesigned?

What other hardware is different, absent the elimination of the dual speaker binding posts?

The rake angle adjustment issue is old news. Jason's wonderful retrofit has addressed that issue. The new lights are cool but I could care less.

What, given the new iteration, makes a sonic difference and why?

I ask all these questions to get a better handle on why the X is better than the original, within the context of upgrading and the cost thereof.

The ML literature on the X does not address or offer any explanation regarding the above issues, absent the x-over frequencies of the bass module.

Devin?

GG

 

[DrJRapp]

Good points Gordon. I really think that the crossover issue is everything,and if you can read between the lines, it is really most beneficial to people with smaller rooms who may have difficulties gaining sufficient side space. The rest of the changes, with the exception of the new feet are there mostly just to create something slightly different from the original Summit

Although ML calls the design of the crossover revolutionary it is only revolutionary for them as Klipsch has done something very similar for nearly 10 years with their top of the line center channels...controlling the phasing and volume near the crossover frequency and they call it "tapered array". It is intend to seemlessly meld the soundstage of their Horn tweeter/midrange to their cone LF drivers just as ML is attempting to meld the panel seemlessly to the LF drivers.

 

[FISH_MAN]

What I would like to know are the hardware differences between the original and the X.

It's apparent that the x-over has been redesigned but the panel remains the same size.

Are the bass drivers / amps new?

Has the woofer module changed?

Have the stat spacers been redesigned?

What other hardware is different, absent the elimination of the dual speaker binding posts?

The rake angle adjustment issue is old news. Jason's wonderful retrofit has addressed that issue. The new lights are cool but I could care less.

What, given the new iteration, makes a sonic difference and why?

I ask all these questions to get a better handle on why the X is better than the original, within the context of upgrading and the cost thereof?

The ML literature on the X does not address or offer any explanation regarding the above issues, absent the x-over frequencies of the bass module.

Devin?

GG

I think they just needed a stepping stone in their product line between the spire and the CLX so they tweeked the summit a bit and Bam! a new price point and a new product. this also helps them to keep up with the rising cost of parts

 

[MDSPHOTO]

Within this Forum, I would be very surprised if any current Summit owner would trade up to the "X" at price tag of $7K+. I think folks who participate in this Forum are very acute to price / performance considerations.

Looking at Shawn's response comparing the two, I guess he's saying that the "X" is worth an additional $3K. That's a far cry from $7K+.

I wish ML the best with the "X" but I know, given the cost of the upgrade, I have absolutely no interest in pursuing. And frankly, given my understanding of the physical differences (improvements) between the two, I would have a difficult time justifying the $3K bump.

GG

PS: Given the fact that Shawn is an ML dealer, I do appreciate his observations and fully understand if he chooses to not comment further on the "value" question. Thank you Shawn.

I couldn't agree more with Gordon's assessment. Since i was able to pick up a brand new set of Summits for just over $6K it would be difficult to justify an additional $8K for an improved crossover and a new lighting gimmick.

 

[tonepub]

And that's the best time to buy, right when everyone is scrambling to buy the new thing. I do the same thing when I upgrade computers every few years. When Apple brings out the latest thing, they are usually trying to get rid of the old thing cheap, to get it off the shelf.

When I bought my last MacBook Pro, the "new" model had a 2.16ghz processor and was 2295, while the "discontinued" model had a 2ghz processor for 1495.

I can't remember who said it, but the people that are buying the remaining Summits in the 6-7k range are getting the deal of a century.

 

[jtwrace]

I can't remember who said it, but the people that are buying the remaining Summits in the 6-7k range are getting the deal of a century.

DaVinci Media

If my memory is correct.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Frankly folks, even though I paid close to list (I was one of the early adopters), I have absolutely no regrets.

It is trully a great speaker in so many important ways.

GG

 

[aliveatfive]

What I would like to know are the hardware differences between the original and the X.

It's apparent that the x-over has been redesigned but the panel remains the same size.

Are the bass drivers / amps new?

Has the woofer module changed?

Have the stat spacers been redesigned?

What other hardware is different, absent the elimination of the dual speaker binding posts?

The rake angle adjustment issue is old news. Jason's wonderful retrofit has addressed that issue. The new lights are cool but I could care less.

What, given the new iteration, makes a sonic difference and why?

I ask all these questions to get a better handle on why the X is better than the original, within the context of upgrading and the cost thereof?

The ML literature on the X does not address or offer any explanation regarding the above issues, absent the x-over frequencies of the bass module.

Devin?

GG

I would also like to get a response to your questions. If the answer is that the crossover is the major change, I doubt that you'll ever get a reply. I don't think that would allow them to explain the reasons for no upgrade path. With the advent of the CLX, I don't see them selling many of these.

 

[tonepub]

I would also like to get a response to your questions. If the answer is that the crossover is the major change, I doubt that you'll ever get a reply. I don't think that would allow them to explain the reasons for no upgrade path. With the advent of the CLX, I don't see them selling many of these.

On one hand, why do they have to explain anything?

The Summit X is the new model. The CLX isn't going to stop people from buying Summit X, it's almost ten thousand dollars more, more than likely needs a pair of subwoofers in most rooms and needs a much bigger room (or at least more room for the speakers), than the Summit X.

For some people the Spire will be plenty, but for those that want more the Summit X is the next logical choice.

Try calling Wilson Audio and asking them what's inside the box and what they've changed from model to model....

I'll guess that they sell quite a few. The Summit was an awesome speaker and offered a tremendous amount of performance in a relatively small footprint. I'm sure the Summit X will carry on the tradition.

 

[FISH_MAN]

I couldn't agree more with Gordon's assessment. Since i was able to pick up a brand new set of Summits for just over $6K it would be difficult to justify an additional $8K for an improved crossover and a new lighting gimmick.

6K is a great price for those great speakers but the deals for new summits will soon be gone and all that will be left are used non dealer models "no warranty".I can speak from experience and say that a good deal is nice but nothing beats the feeling of walking into your local audio store and ordering a bran new set of the latest model speaker out! and that's what you will get if you buy a Summit X its the best hybrid speaker Martin Logan offers today and if you spend the money that's what you will have but it comes at a premium. Like I have said before I hope DaVinci Media sell a lot of pairs this year if I where to buy a new set that's where I would head out to first.for me the spire offers as much speaker as I need to be honest it's more speaker than I ever thought I would own!

don't be a player hater the ground effects on the Summit X are cool touch it says that price was no object when we made these thats why we even put light on the bottom!

BTW TonePub I love your new avitar I have been a big fan since the beginning

 

[aliveatfive]

On one hand, why do they have to explain anything?

The Summit X is the new model. The CLX isn't going to stop people from buying Summit X, it's almost ten thousand dollars more, more than likely needs a pair of subwoofers in most rooms and needs a much bigger room (or at least more room for the speakers), than the Summit X.

For some people the Spire will be plenty, but for those that want more the Summit X is the next logical choice.

Try calling Wilson Audio and asking them what's inside the box and what they've changed from model to model....

I'll guess that they sell quite a few. The Summit was an awesome speaker and offered a tremendous amount of performance in a relatively small footprint. I'm sure the Summit X will carry on the tradition.

Why do they have to explain? 'Cause if I'm gonna plunk down another 8 grand to trade in for these, I'd like an explanation of what I'd be buying!

 

[Gordon Gray]

That was the purpose of my questions.

If I am a current owner and am considering an upgrade to the "X", why should I consider doing this, given the dollars involved to upgrade?

I guess ML doesn't really care about current Summit owners upgrading and are marketing to new buyers.

GG

 

[Bernard]

But those explanations, if provided, would possibly just be marketing hype - proprietary Vojtko crossovers, etc. As TAS said, "Yes, Virginia, there IS a Vojtko"....but I digress.....Would it not be better, as always, to listen to the two speakers and decide for yourself if the improvement is worth the $8K to you ?

 

[houstonshark]

I don't think Martin Logan (or DaVinci Media) are trying to convince anyone to trade in their Summit for the Summit X. ML's intention is to fill a big gap between the Spire and CLX within their product line.

I think they discontinued the Summit because the Spire performed right up there with the Summit at a better price. They couldn't just raise the price of the then current Summit and expect people to buy it so they made some changes called it the Summit X and now their lineup is a little more linear from the Spire ($8500), Summit X($14K) and CLX ($20K).

 

[tonepub]

I think Houstonshark is right on the money. We've got a pair of Summit X speakers on the way and I can borrow a pair of Summits from a friend.

That way we can do an apples to apples comparison, and in addition to the
normal review, we'll be doing a "so what do you get with the summit X" sidebar, where we can outline what the differences are in features and in sound.

We'll do our best to break it down for you...

I guess the way I look at it is that instead of ML raising the price on the Summit from 11k to 12, they added some upgrades and raised it somewhat more. Some people will be ok with that and others won't.

 

[Gordon Gray]

I would respectfully disagree with Houston and Jeff.

How can the Spire, having one powered bass driver "be right up there in performance with the Summit" when the Summit has two bass drivers, two amps per speaker, with double the bass power output.

Maybe one individual may not need or require the additional "weight" in the bottom octaves. Maybe the listening room is smaller and doesn't require two 10" drivers per speaker to convey the musical message and low end "weight" of a particular piece of music.

I have also found that having "separate" 25 and 50hz x-over controls has allowed me to fine tune the mid and lower bass area in my room to a remarkable degree. Just confirmed that again a couple of nights ago.

I am glad folks like their Spires (and I'm sure it is a great speaker) but there are obvious mechanical / physical differences between the two that will (depending on the music, room size, etc.) impact overall performance.

I look forward to Jeff's observations.

GG

 

[jtwrace]

I would think that the benefit with two woofers would be huge...for the same output each woofer is working in half compared to a single woofer. That will give a huge effect on the real lower octaves.

 

[taylode]

Some where in this it has to come down to which speakers "your" ears prefer. No amount of disclosure from ML will change that. I wouldn't expect any manufacture to divulge the information that some on this thread are asking. ML dose not owe Summit owners anything. They received a top quality speaker for a reasonable price. The introduction of the Summit X does not alter that. Enjoy what you have as it’s a great speaker and wait another three years when the next great speaker is released. You’ll have gotten full use from your Summit’s and will be ready for the upgrade.

 

[amey01]

What the big issue for anyone considering purchase here is.........you've got the Summit X at $USD15,000 and a second-hand original Summit for what - $USD5,000 or 6,000.

That's got to speak louder than any difference between the Spire and Summit X. We have extreme value in our midst.

As per another thread, this must also have factored in ML's decision not to provide an X upgrade - how could they sell any new Summit Xs at 15K when people could get them for 6,500K (assuming a $USD1,500 upgrade cost).