Stands for the CLS

[MiTT]

While not really a "stand" per se, I spent a LOT of time this weekend experimenting with different ideas, materials, heights etc. on getting my CLS's up off the floor. I tried 4X4's, stone pavers, and these glass blocks. I originally had the glass blocks oriented the other direction - so that the speakers were 8" off the floor, but the imaging suffered. I finally settled on this temporary installation as it offered the best sound and decent stability as I continue to work on some custom stands.

After hearing the speakers off the floor there is a definite improvement in midrange focus and a certain tightening of the bass. The depth of the soundstage was also slightly improved. I'm a believer in getting these speakers up off the ground, but, in my room at least I should think that the 12" height that the Sound Anchor stands lifts them would not be the best soinically.

While certainly not a permanent solution, I rather like how the glass blocks make the speakers appear to hover off of the floor.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Tim,
The glass looks kinda cool. I too felt 8 inches off the floor was the right height. That is how high my stands were made.


Jeff

 

[raygunn]

Tim, the height is a minor issue with respect to using purpose-built CLS stands...

I would think that your use of glass blocks on carpeting would create even a bigger problem from an imaging and soundstage focus and detail persepective. The CLS' sway with the music. They sway A LOT!(mostly front-to-back). The blocks on carpeting probably rock as well, so imaging and detail must have suffered quite a bit.

It is this swaying and rocking that adversely affects the sound of the CLS (actually, all ML's). The height change (all things remaining equal), just moves the sweet spot.

The only stands for the CLS that truly address this problem and effectively eliminate it are the SA stands and the Arcici Stands. The SA stands are still in production, the Arcici's are not.

An additional benefit to the SA stands is that it decouples the power supply box from the CLS panel. This also yields nice returns in terms of reduced vibration and resonance from that box.

It's not real easy to explain all of this without pictures.
I am going to try to post annotated pictures for you so that it can clarify exactly what I'm talking about.

Cheers,
Ray

While not really a "stand" per se, I spent a LOT of time this weekend experimenting with different ideas, materials, heights etc. on getting my CLS's up off the floor. I tried 4X4's, stone pavers, and these glass blocks. I originally had the glass blocks oriented the other direction - so that the speakers were 8" off the floor, but the imaging suffered. I finally settled on this temporary installation as it offered the best sound and decent stability as I continue to work on some custom stands.

After hearing the speakers off the floor there is a definite improvement in midrange focus and a certain tightening of the bass. The depth of the soundstage was also slightly improved. I'm a believer in getting these speakers up off the ground, but, in my room at least I should think that the 12" height that the Sound Anchor stands lifts them would not be the best soinically.

While certainly not a permanent solution, I rather like how the glass blocks make the speakers appear to hover off of the floor.

 

[DTB300]

They sway A LOT!(mostly front-to-back).

With all the discussion about stands and anti-sway bars/supports (sounds like car audio tweaks), has anyone ever measured the exact amount of sway???

I can see something like one of those drums right along side a panel rotating top to bottom, with a measurement pen attached to the frame and as the drum slowly turns the sway of the frame is measured. Think of something like seismographic type equipment.

So, has anyone done something like this for support?

 

[SundayNiagara]

I would think that your use of glass blocks on carpeting would create even a bigger problem from an imaging and soundstage focus and detail persepective. The CLS' sway with the music. They sway A LOT!(mostly front-to-back). The blocks on carpeting probably rock as well, so imaging and detail must have suffered quite a bit.

It is this swaying and rocking that adversely affects the sound of the CLS (actually, all ML's). The height change (all things remaining equal), just moves the sweet spot.

The only stands for the CLS that truly address this problem and effectively eliminate it are the SA stands and the Arcici Stands. The SA stands are still in production, the Arcici's are not.

An additional benefit to the SA stands is that it decouples the power supply box from the CLS panel. This also yields nice returns in terms of reduced vibration and resonance from that box.

It's not real easy to explain all of this without pictures.
I am going to try to post annotated pictures for you so that it can clarify exactly what I'm talking about.

Cheers,
Ray

Post of the day!

 

[nsgarch]

With all the discussion about stands and anti-sway bars/supports (sounds like car audio tweaks), has anyone ever measured the exact amount of sway??? , has anyone done something like this for support?

Yes, and the top of the speaker will deflect at least 2", or a bit more, forward and backward (total ). And that's on a concrete slab floor, with spikes (no stands), and everything nice and tight. Furthermore (and worse) it takes very little force to create this movement.

Surely you don't think I'd go to all the effort of fabricating tasty looking, workmanlike struts, to brace against a movement that might not even exist?? The increase in transient response was just amazing, For me, that means being able to understand lyrics better (and one of the reasons I like stats to begin with.)

 

[SundayNiagara]

Yes, and the top of the speaker will deflect at least 2", or a bit more, forward and backward (total ). And that's on a concrete slab floor, with spikes (no stands), and everything nice and tight. Furthermore (and worse) it takes very little force to create this movement.

Surely you don't think I'd go to all the effort of fabricating tasty looking, workmanlike struts, to brace against a movement that might not even exist?? The increase in transient response was just amazing, For me, that means being able to understand lyrics better (and one of the reasons I like stats to begin with.)

And yet another great post!

 

[raygunn]

Anti-sway bars

.......The increase in transient response was just amazing, For me, that means being able to understand lyrics better (and one of the reasons I like stats to begin with.)

AMEN :bowdown:

 

[Bernard]

in my room at least I should think that the 12" height that the Sound Anchor stands lifts them would not be the best soinically.

Tim, have you considered asking SA if they would make a custom 8" stand for you? It may well be expensive, but then again it may not.

 

[raygunn]

It's important to also clarify that this sway issue is not unique to the CLS...

I first discovered the sway problem back when I had the Sequel 2's.
Actually, they had a myriad of structural problems, but the panel sway was outrageous.

I mass-loaded the tops of the panels first with bags of sand and then when the bags started to fall off, I made some pucks made of lead shot that worked very well. Due to the materials used in the Sequel's framework, I was scared to drill into it and attach an iron brace like that used in the CLS stands.

I showed friends the sonic benefits and they reported back similar results with the SL3 and the Aerius.

Later, I did the same bracing and mass loading with the Quests and ReQuests and achieved big results in dynamics, image focus, and woofer integration.

ML's have improved the structural rigidity of the panels dramatically over the years, however I have been more than a bit curious as to how the XStat metal-framed panels on the hybrids do in this area...

 

[compaddict]

I would like to see my speakers sway front to back two inchs. Methinks not so much!

Vince

Yes, and the top of the speaker will deflect at least 2", or a bit more, forward and backward (total ). And that's on a concrete slab floor, with spikes (no stands), and everything nice and tight. Furthermore (and worse) it takes very little force to create this movement.

Surely you don't think I'd go to all the effort of fabricating tasty looking, workmanlike struts, to brace against a movement that might not even exist?? The increase in transient response was just amazing, For me, that means being able to understand lyrics better (and one of the reasons I like stats to begin with.)

 

[DTB300]

Yes, and the top of the speaker will deflect at least 2", or a bit more, forward and backward (total ). And that's on a concrete slab floor, with spikes (no stands), and everything nice and tight. Furthermore (and worse) it takes very little force to create this movement.

2" huh - that is a lot. So, at what sound levels did this happen - 70, 80, 90dB, higher? Is this a guess or actual measurement? Not trying to be difficult or confrontational, but if the panels really do move as much as you state, don't you think ML would have been aware of it, and if detrimental, would have done a different design?

Surely you don't think I'd go to all the effort of fabricating tasty looking, workmanlike struts, to brace against a movement that might not even exist?? The increase in transient response was just amazing, For me, that means being able to understand lyrics better (and one of the reasons I like stats to begin with.)

Many things exist in the audio world, some work, some do not, some are snake oil, etc. And people do things in their setup for many different reasons - which is their decisions. So I could not guess why you would do it.

 

[DTB300]

And yet another great post!

 

[DTB300]

I first discovered the sway problem back when I had the Sequel 2's. Actually, they had a myriad of structural problems, but the panel sway was outrageous.

Now we are getting out of hand here...2" to OUTRAGEOUS sway.

I mass-loaded the tops of the panels first with bags of sand and then when the bags started to fall off, I made some pucks made of lead shot that worked very well. Due to the materials used in the Sequel's framework, I was scared to drill into it and attach an iron brace like that used in the CLS stands.

Mass loading on the electronics does help with the Sequel II's and RabbitHouse did some clamps on his panels which was really a wild looking addition. I also use mass loading on my electronics sections of the CLS from the day I owned them and found benefit from it.

ML's have improved the structural rigidity of the panels dramatically over the years, however I have been more than a bit curious as to how the XStat metal-framed panels on the hybrids do in this area...

Funny, but when I saw the Summits, I found the panel to have some flex to it and attributed that to little frame around it compared to other ML's. But I am sure ML has done their design and testing on the structure and would not have made them like that if it was detrimental.

 

[C.A.P]

I agree there is some sway but NOT 2 inches . I have checked . The rigid panel is what keeps the image dead on. I will be showing my new stands soon. They are a svelt looking ARCCI type stand with back braces to the panel !

If your panel was swaying 2 inches it would look like a wave of wood ! Take a washer and hang it on the side of the wood frame with a string, ( like a minuture plumb bob) and play music and watch how much movement you get. Not much ! But enough to blur things up.

 

[DTB300]

I agree there is some sway but NOT 2 inches . I have checked . The rigid panel is what keeps the image dead on. I will be showing my new stands soon. They are a svelt looking ARCCI type stand with back braces to the panel !

I will be interested in seeing what you have come up as all your wood designs are great - I am envious as I do not have the skill nor the tools to even attempt something like you have done. Have you designed something so it does not cause one to screw into the frame?

 

[raygunn]

Pictures

Post of the day!

Here some pics. Please excuse the dust.

BTW, screwing into the beautiful oak frame was painful but necessary.

 

[SundayNiagara]

Here some pics. Please excuse the dust.

BTW, screwing into the beautiful oak frame was painful but necessary.

Thanks for posting those shots. However, there will still be doubting thomases/disbelievers no matter what you do or say.

 

[SundayNiagara]

"2" huh - that is a lot. So, at what sound levels did this happen - 70, 80, 90dB, higher? Is this a guess or actual measurement? Not trying to be difficult or confrontational, but if the panels really do move as much as you state, don't you think ML would have been aware of it, and if detrimental, would have done a different design?"

Ever hear of Myestands for Maggies? Why do you think they are being produced?

 

[Bernard]

I first discovered the sway problem back when I had the Sequel 2's.
Actually, they had a myriad of structural problems, but the panel sway was outrageous.

I showed friends the sonic benefits and they reported back similar results with the SL3 and the Aerius.

What were the speakers sitting on? Were they spiked to the floor ?