Sonnie
Well-known member
oops... I apologize GG... got the two Gordons confused there.
Spires vs. ReQuest (Possibly buyers remorse?)
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Bernard
Well-known member
You make a very good point. If it all sounds the same, spend the money on software, not on hardware.
tonepub
Senior Member
While it's impossible to make a judgement on your system without actually hearing it and looking at pictures, the best source of information I've seen on this thread is to dial in the ML's with all the subs out of the system.
If I had to guess from looking at the pictures, it looks like you've got so much bass energy in the room, you might have some suckout issues. You could be overdriving the room with bass and upper mid energy. Too much in the subwoofer department does as much for ruining the overall tonal balance than not enough.
Also, as the new speakers are more revealing than the older ones, as a few people have mentioned, your new speakers may be revealing more deficiency than the old ones.
Hope you sort it out.....
If I had to guess from looking at the pictures, it looks like you've got so much bass energy in the room, you might have some suckout issues. You could be overdriving the room with bass and upper mid energy. Too much in the subwoofer department does as much for ruining the overall tonal balance than not enough.
Also, as the new speakers are more revealing than the older ones, as a few people have mentioned, your new speakers may be revealing more deficiency than the old ones.
Hope you sort it out.....
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Sonnie,
I was not referring to Gordon's last post within the context of taking "pot shots".
Although I have never met the man (although I hope to in the relatively near future), I have found his posts to be spirited, reasonable, and respectful. As others have told me on several occasions (and it was inevitably true), I oftentimes overeacted to well meaning posts. I suspect the same may be true for you in this situation.
Given the fact that he also has Spires and has spent alot of time and money to further improve his system's sound he, like others (including me) take strong exception to some, if not all, of Mr. PA's opinions.
What truly matters, and is generally recognized as an axiom on this site, is one's enjoyment of the music. Having had four different models of ML's over the past 25 years or so, I can certainly validate the fact that these puppies can be the antithesis of "user friendly" regarding optimizing the performance. But once you do, we all know the rest of the story.
Good luck.
GG
I was not referring to Gordon's last post within the context of taking "pot shots".
Although I have never met the man (although I hope to in the relatively near future), I have found his posts to be spirited, reasonable, and respectful. As others have told me on several occasions (and it was inevitably true), I oftentimes overeacted to well meaning posts. I suspect the same may be true for you in this situation.
Given the fact that he also has Spires and has spent alot of time and money to further improve his system's sound he, like others (including me) take strong exception to some, if not all, of Mr. PA's opinions.
What truly matters, and is generally recognized as an axiom on this site, is one's enjoyment of the music. Having had four different models of ML's over the past 25 years or so, I can certainly validate the fact that these puppies can be the antithesis of "user friendly" regarding optimizing the performance. But once you do, we all know the rest of the story.
Good luck.
GG
Gordon
Well-known member
Sonnie, Please forgive me if I came across a bit too strong. I haven't mastered the art of on line light sarcasm and those smilie things, well.....
While I can respect anybodies position on anything, MLOC has become a place where I can come and talk about different tweaks that posters would get smeared for at other forums. While there have been a couple isolated cases of discussions going over the edge, I can accept just about any view until links to writers of questionable backgrounds are thrown in my face. Writers don't impress, nor do numbers or specs on gear. Perhaps if you wrote YOUR thoughts and not someone elses, it may have gone down easier. Nobody, including myself likes to hear their kid is ugly!
Please accept my apology and sincere hope you achieve what you are looking for.
Gordon
While I can respect anybodies position on anything, MLOC has become a place where I can come and talk about different tweaks that posters would get smeared for at other forums. While there have been a couple isolated cases of discussions going over the edge, I can accept just about any view until links to writers of questionable backgrounds are thrown in my face. Writers don't impress, nor do numbers or specs on gear. Perhaps if you wrote YOUR thoughts and not someone elses, it may have gone down easier. Nobody, including myself likes to hear their kid is ugly!
Please accept my apology and sincere hope you achieve what you are looking for.
Gordon
Not outrageous, just uninformed. And I am sure many receivers sound great with other speakers, but the simple fact is that most of them sound like crap through ML's compared to quality separates. Their parts are too cheap, their power supplies are too wimpy, their circuits are too bloated with things that interfere with the audio signal, and they just can't cut it with ML's impedance swings.
If you are happy with your receiver and you like the sound, then more power to you. But my guess is if that is the case then you have never heard high quality separates powering a set of ML's in a decent room. Or perhaps you just don't have a discerning ear. Either way, it is fine because you have saved yourself a bunch of money.
That's funny, I have never heard any sound coming from my wall outlets. Where do you buy those?
Sonny, your receiver is probably fine for casual listening, or home theater use, but if you want the best sound for two-channel stereo with ML speakers, it really isn't up to the task. It is rated at 140 wpc at 8 ohms with both channels driven. How much is it rated at for 4 ohms with both channels driven? They don't tell you that spec. Wonder why? If your amplifier cannot double down (i.e. give you twice the wattage for four ohms that it is specified for eight ohms) then it is not going to handle ML's swinging impedance very well. This is one small reason why it won't sound as good as high quality separates. There are many others.
Anyway, that's my opinion for what its worth, and it is an opinion shared by the majority of the experienced members of this forum. If it helps, great. If not, that's fine too.
Your amp doesn't have to double down to be considered a great piece or handle Logan's impedance swings Rich. Case in point, there's a lot of fanfare over the Moscode 402 in the 5k range and the are plenty of amps at that price point that double down. That being said any respectable unit does have to do better than most receivers where your lucky to gain 10% in wattage between operation at 8ohms and 4ohms.
I had a similar experience a while back I bought a pair of Requests to replace my Sequel IIs as much as I wanted to like the Requests better in the end I sold them and kept the sequels. As for how much associated equipment makes a difference in my experience with MLs everything matters to your power equipment, source, source material, speaker cables, interconnects, isolation devices because MLs will pick up differences most speakers can't.
Sonnie,
I’m a little late to the party, but I believe your issue is mainly driven by the lack of front wall treatments.
As you’ve already tried by now, some absorption is good. But be careful to select acoustic devices that do not have reflective elements in them. IIRC, the GIK panels have limp mass absorbers (plastic sheet) that helps with low-freq absorption, but is still reflective at HF.
For something placed *behind* the speaker, a trap with HF absorption is a must. Otherwise, you still have comb filtering smearing the sound.
For rear speakers, some diffusion behind and to the sides of them would help with envelopment. I recommend the RealTraps Diffusor, as the combo of diffusion and bass trapping is quite effective around the rear speakers.
Also, I agree with Jeff, your room might be over-energized by low frequencies plus the ringing of the high-frequencies (from under damped front/rear walls) which will give an unnatural balance.
I’ve been there done that. When I first put in my IB sub, it was amazing what a truly great sub can do, but it was now overpowering the rest of the frequencies, pushing me to raise the highs, which in turn caused room ringing.
The fix is to treat the room (see my acoustic threads Part 1 – Part 2 for details and measurements) plus add in the right level of room correction.
As for power, I also believe your speakers could sound better with an amp that can deliver more current across the impedance spectrum. Borrow (or buy used) a Sunfire amp and hear for yourself what a difference good power can do on these ML’s.
vic
Member
Gordon... not sure how you arrive at your earlier comments, but they are inappropriate at best... definitely inaccurate... and a "pot shot" at me, if you will. I have not rejected anything completely, much less "out of hand". You might want to look up the definition of trolling, which is what you actually did... I started the thread.
Btw... what you read about his speaker company was from forum blurb. There was a LOT more to it that what was written, if you investigate. The guy is STILL editor and publisher of a VERY lucrative, successful, credible and respected audio magazine.
Thanks Erik... Going from the Denon 2807 to the Anthem gear was rather subtle as well for me. The Denon just ran out of gas when it came time to crank it up. The quality of power we definitely there at lower volumes... just not quantity. From the Anthem to the NAD was also subtle, but the NAD won out because it was definitely able to tame my bass response better without any other acoustics or outboard equalization.
The guy has quite a bit of credibility among the audiophile community...
BUT... I also understand it does not make him an audiophile god either. He just cannot be that easily dismissed.
FTR... my posting of that link was totally in response to Irishtom's comments and all in good fun discussion. Of course if the shoe fits...
While I do not necessarily agree with everything the guy says, it is a really good article with a LOT of proven and credible truths. It is kind of like the preacher who preaches on sin that members in the congregation are guilty of... it steps on their toes and they get hostile and defensive.
**************
Ah yes... back on track with the thread.
1- As suggested... I have moved the speakers a little further inward, but will not be able to move them any farther out from the wall until I get longer speaker wire... which I just have to go to the closet to dig out amongst a bus load of cables and wires.
2- As suggested... I have installed the acoustic panels on the front wall, although I will need to order replacements for the sides... which has now been done. GIK says thank you ML Owners Club!
3- As suggested... I have ordered the very last NAD T785 that NAD had in stock (at least I got a good deal on it)... more "quality" power.
I appreciate the suggestions and opinions for improvement...
Hi Sonny,
I have prodigy,s for fronts and requests for rears and far more quality power than most systems .Prodigy,s are at least 3db more efficient than requests like you I have them very widely spaced(more than rec but still sound very good for 2 channel no problem on multi channel as centre fills it in.
Newer model ML are more efficient and focusing on size(smaller)than what is best.Depending on music choice and HT movies type you may get away with small amps but for HT dynamic range can be very large(30db plus)and even 300watts plus may not cut it.(the reason most people do is we listen at -15db to -5db from reference so its easier on amps.
As for quality electronics a 2 channel pre and high quality 2 channel amp(on front Left and Right)will make a big difference even on movie soundtracks(Audio Research Reference 600mkIII monoblocks TUBE) MADE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE in my system and when they breakdown I have to use a krell TAS or BAT amp and my depression begins.Martin Logans being electrostatics are VERY REVEALING and any problems upstream or room related are easily heard and will drive you MAD?But stick with it with synergy in your system they have unmatched beauty with music.
Regards Victor.
MY SYSTEM,
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php?t=13152
Sonnie
Well-known member
Gordon... apology accepted... absolutely no hard feelings here. Although I do enjoy some spirited and challenging conversation, I did not intend to offensively ruffle anyone's feathers.
Lots of good info guys and I appreciate it.
I have been trying to find some diffusers for the rears, but those are so expensive. Ethan's run $600 each, although probably stellar diffusers knowing Ethan.
I am not aware of any plastic in GIK's acoustic panels, but I will find out for sure.
I have already noticed an improvement with the panels on the front wall, but I think you hit the nail on the head Rich... a discerning ear is probably 75% of my issue, despite the fact I know there was a significant difference in the sound of the Ascent i's and Spires. In addition to the rooms being drastically different, from what I have read on this forum, these are truly different sounding speakers (earlier generation vs newer generation).
As previously noted, the Onkyo will be moving on... as well as I have a few other options I will be testing out over the next few weeks.
Again... all of the suggestions and info is very much appreciated.
Lots of good info guys and I appreciate it.
I have been trying to find some diffusers for the rears, but those are so expensive. Ethan's run $600 each, although probably stellar diffusers knowing Ethan.
I am not aware of any plastic in GIK's acoustic panels, but I will find out for sure.
I have already noticed an improvement with the panels on the front wall, but I think you hit the nail on the head Rich... a discerning ear is probably 75% of my issue, despite the fact I know there was a significant difference in the sound of the Ascent i's and Spires. In addition to the rooms being drastically different, from what I have read on this forum, these are truly different sounding speakers (earlier generation vs newer generation).
As previously noted, the Onkyo will be moving on... as well as I have a few other options I will be testing out over the next few weeks.
Again... all of the suggestions and info is very much appreciated.
Good luck with it, Sonnie. And remember, the journey is half the fun. Once you get your current system dialed in, then each and every change you make for the better will increase your listening pleasure that much more.
Amps and RTA...
Hi Sonnie,
I caught your posts late in the process. A few thoughts:
0. Make sure you map out a vision for your system. That will help you guide your decision making process and make you think twice before dropping cash on superfluous accessories
1. It is good that you dumped your original receiver. However, moving up further to better quality electronics will make a big difference. It is no secret on this site that at least one big chain had a hard time selling ML speakers in demo rooms using japanese electronics. Because the MLs are so power hungry, I think the electronics make a bigger difference than they do in conventional speakers (which unlike MLs can largely rely on the first few watts, which may be the better "class a" watts of a typical a/b amplifier).... That does not mean that a $10k set of class a monos will solve the problem; there is just as much junk being sold at high price points
2. So over time you should consider checking out better-quality used electronics; visit people and shops. Online there are some liquid markets where you can find a lot of gear and sell what does meet your needs. Use care when considering professional reviews or online equipment recommendations
3. Integrating your subs properly will make a huge difference in your system. That is especially complex with two subs. I see that you have performed some room node calculations. Have you measured low frequency response of your room? That will provide you with significantly more useful information. I would highly recommend that you check out the www.hometheatershack.com site for a primer on measuring your room properly, integrating one, then a second sub. Finally, their (free) RTA software will help you properly integrate your sub and mains.
In the end the RTA helped me immensely with speaker/sub placement/integration; I did not equalize any of my equipment outside placement because I could not find a transparent equalizer (lie: I adjusted the gain dial and 25hz dial on sub).
4. After that you might determine if you want to dump money in acoustic treatments
Good luck,
Hi Sonnie,
I caught your posts late in the process. A few thoughts:
0. Make sure you map out a vision for your system. That will help you guide your decision making process and make you think twice before dropping cash on superfluous accessories
1. It is good that you dumped your original receiver. However, moving up further to better quality electronics will make a big difference. It is no secret on this site that at least one big chain had a hard time selling ML speakers in demo rooms using japanese electronics. Because the MLs are so power hungry, I think the electronics make a bigger difference than they do in conventional speakers (which unlike MLs can largely rely on the first few watts, which may be the better "class a" watts of a typical a/b amplifier).... That does not mean that a $10k set of class a monos will solve the problem; there is just as much junk being sold at high price points
2. So over time you should consider checking out better-quality used electronics; visit people and shops. Online there are some liquid markets where you can find a lot of gear and sell what does meet your needs. Use care when considering professional reviews or online equipment recommendations
3. Integrating your subs properly will make a huge difference in your system. That is especially complex with two subs. I see that you have performed some room node calculations. Have you measured low frequency response of your room? That will provide you with significantly more useful information. I would highly recommend that you check out the www.hometheatershack.com site for a primer on measuring your room properly, integrating one, then a second sub. Finally, their (free) RTA software will help you properly integrate your sub and mains.
In the end the RTA helped me immensely with speaker/sub placement/integration; I did not equalize any of my equipment outside placement because I could not find a transparent equalizer (lie: I adjusted the gain dial and 25hz dial on sub).
4. After that you might determine if you want to dump money in acoustic treatments
Good luck,
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Sonnie
Well-known member
Thanks Rich and Preston!
Preston... just so you know... I own Home Theater Shack. I actually have six subs too, four in the back.
Preston... just so you know... I own Home Theater Shack. I actually have six subs too, four in the back.
TomDac
former MLO owner/operator
hey Sonnie, there are also some things you can put on your windows to prevent them from vibrating....
OK.. well maybe I shouldn't open that can of worms again!
ROFL
OK.. well maybe I shouldn't open that can of worms again!
ROFL
Sonnie
Well-known member
What windows?
I have heard Dynamat works really well though.
I have heard Dynamat works really well though.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Mr. Prez,
In retrospect, I think the "dot" thread had some real value although it was somewhat "trying" at the time. Absent Robin's thread on ML systems and pictures thereof, I suppose I can take pride in the fact it ellicited the largest number of posts on this website.
It does reinforce the wonderful opportunity that you have created to allow for diverse (and dare I say respectful) discourse on many levels of audio topics and other things in life.
Thank you for creating this website and for being our Webmaster.
Best,
GG
MiTT
Super User
Really? Even more than my "Sunday Morning Music" thread? It has over 40,000 hits as of today and more than 1200 replies. I didn't know the "magic dot" thread was that popular? (although I good one I will admit).
(Yep, curiosity got the better of me, the thread had 9178 hits and elicited 324 replys before it was closed. Sorry Gordon, I've got you beat on this one).
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When it was suggested to you to try high quailty separates, Athem doesn't fit the bill for that. Try something like a Pass Labs amp that many memebers on this forum use such as a 250.5X or a Simaudio Evolution amp or go tubes if you like, Cary, Mac, Blue Circle.You don't know what you are missing, and quality does matter as suggested to you. I am not too surprised at all that their wasn't much of a difference between your Athem separates and you receiver.
