Increasing Martin Logan sweet spot with Synergistic Research HFT's

[MOON]

After reading the many positive reviews of Synergistic Research hft's I decided to give them a try. The reason I wanted to try them was to increase the narrow sweet spot that Martin logans generally have.

Hft's are little metal round objects that are very small and attach to the walls with blue-tack. I took advantage of the annual Synergistic Research offer of buying 2 packs of hft's, get the 3rd free.

I bought a 10 pack set of normal hft's, a 5 pack of 2.0's which give a warmer sound and a 3 pack of wide angle x. On the front wall behind the speakers are 8 hft's that are placed like the Synergistic Research site recommends along with the wide angle x right at center.

The rest are dispersed around the room as in the directions. We attached these to the walls 5 at a time and then listened , then proceeded with the next five listening again. We then did the last five and then added the 3 wide angle x pack of hft's.

Just with the first 5 on the wall made a huge difference. What I thought before was a good soundstage was nothing compared to having the full hft set up. The stage gets wider, deeper and comes out into the room more. I have a love seat in my listening room. So you are sitting just beside center.

Now with the hft's I can move my head slowly from one side to the other without losing the image. I still can't beleive it. That formerly small sweet spot is now much larger. Best of all the music sounds better than ever. I must add I also installed a synergistic research FAQ as well.

If you would like to increase the narrow ml sweet spot and want the best musical experience I suggest you give these a try. Synergistic Research has a money back guarantee. Have a look at the reviews.
Cheers, Greg

 

[RDC]

Interesting to read this. I did some exploring and it bothers me that the manufacturer is very unclear about how it works. There's more 'sales speak' than any logical explanation why this should work so well. I understand that they will be hesitant, due to copy cats, to disclose what materials they use. But what I mean is that they seem to shy away from any sort of measurement that could show the promised change -- whatever that may hear/look like -- in a particular situation. The posted video's aren't much help either, particularly how they are filled with pauses/conversations (but non-edited maybe a good thing) which makes it impossible to compare the changes by ear. If that would even be viable via Youtube.

Looking at opinions from others on the web, it shows that not all experiences are positive. But none of the pro or anti teams made any measurements either. It also seems that most anti-minded people don't seem to have tried it out anyway. Which is a shame, because it would be nice if someone would post some measurements alongside their opinion, may it be positive or negative.

I can't find a reseller over here, so I don't think I will be able to try it out for myself anytime soon.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Interesting to read this. I did some exploring and it bothers me that the manufacturer is very unclear about how it works. There's more 'sales speak' than any logical explanation why this should work so well. I understand that they will be hesitant, due to copy cats, to disclose what materials they use. But what I mean is that they seem to shy away from any sort of measurement that could show the promised change -- whatever that may hear/look like -- in a particular situation. The posted video's aren't much help either, particularly how they are filled with pauses/conversations (but non-edited maybe a good thing) which makes it impossible to compare the changes by ear. If that would even be viable via Youtube.

Looking at opinions from others on the web, it shows that not all experiences are positive. But none of the pro or anti teams made any measurements either. It also seems that most anti-minded people don't seem to have tried it out anyway. Which is a shame, because it would be nice if someone would post some measurements alongside their opinion, may it be positive or negative.

I can't find a reseller over here, so I don't think I will be able to try it out for myself anytime soon.

Sounds like snake oil to me.

If there is no way to explain what they do, they probably don't.

There are other vendors selling things to stick directly on the speakers or even rocks to put in the corners of your room. At some point you have to realize that simply moving your furniture an inch will have more impact.

 

[JonFo]

Yeah, color me skeptical as well. The sweet spot is majorly affected by the rear-wave reflections, and can be easily measured with REW and a calibrated mic (less than $200 in gear + your laptop).

If the ESL speakers are moved even a fraction of an inch, that will have a bigger impact than little dots ever could, even if they have mega-dampening characteristics (unlikely).

 

[Tosh]

Sizzling mini cymbals are not snake oil. They really do make a sound. You can make them yourself from aluminum foil. Now, as to WHY you would want to listen to shimmering tin foil, well, there were even ML models that has these already built-in, called something like NAC....

 

[RDC]

It didn't take long for "snake oil" coming up and here I was trying to keep it empirical.
For me it's the size and apparent inertness of the HFT's what's bothering me. How could such a small area affect the total sound wave interaction with the room.

About the FEQ device they state:

"The FEQ is a single channel ULF (Ultra Low Frequency) RF pulse generator that acts as a low frequency dither to overpower the ambient RFI and EMI fields in your listening room."

I find that interesting as I only know RF generators to be possible sources of RFI/EMI, not abstracting or lowering RFI/EMI from an environment.
Of course the RF frequency range seems to be nowhere mentioned. Maybe Moon can have a look in the manual for that data, as normally it's mandatory to supply this data with every appliance sold (in Europe) that generates RF. But we all know what effect a (strong) RF or EM signal can have; all of us have heard the strange sequence of crackling coming from our speakers as a result of our cell phones trying to receive a signal. Or a magnet placed nearby an old CRT TV. Not a daily problem for me, but could this device work in a more subdued fashion?

On to the dithering part then. As far as I recall, in audio or imaging, dithering will reproduce a better, more accurate analog signal from digital to analog conversion. It will also add some noise to the analog signal as a result of errors introduced by the dithering process. Dithering is normally not used to "overpower" a signal. When keeping in mind that the FEQ device is connected to the mains power signal in only two separate ways; power signal and ground. It has no other connections and therefor no direct influence on the audio signal other than via manipulation the mains signal. But is doesn't state it works that way at all. They seem to imply that it works by only influencing the "ambient" (a.k.a. induction induced) RF signal in the environment. Given all the induction induced RF signals we have around us, like WiFi, mobile cells, microwave and basically all other electric items in your house, I wonder how they manage to get even close to knowing what the complex compound of induction signals actually is. Let alone know how to overpower it by applying dithering. It baffles me.

Again, some empirical reproducible measurements would be fantastic. But I doubt they will ever come.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

OK, directly on point then.

When I was working on a digital mastering console many years ago, the original recordings were all 24 bit wide. The processing chain was all 56 bit wide and in the final render for CD's at 16 bit there was 1 or 2 LSB of dither allowed, either rectangular( 1st order) or triangular( 2nd order) dithering. Most recording engineers have been employing dither for decades.

Dither makes no sense outside of the digital path and is just techobabble that they are using to try to market something that has no benefit.


If you want to improve the acoustics of a room there are very real treatments to help with ringing and standing waves. And the great news is that they have very measurable improvements and installers typically use measuring devices to both customize and verify the improvements.

 

[GW1800]

After reading the many positive reviews of Synergistic Research hft's I decided to give them a try. The reason I wanted to try them was to increase the narrow sweet spot that Martin logans generally have.

Hft's are little metal round objects that are very small and attach to the walls with blue-tack. I took advantage of the annual Synergistic Research offer of buying 2 packs of hft's, get the 3rd free.

I bought a 10 pack set of normal hft's, a 5 pack of 2.0's which give a warmer sound and a 3 pack of wide angle x. On the front wall behind the speakers are 8 hft's that are placed like the Synergistic Research site recommends along with the wide angle x right at center.

The rest are dispersed around the room as in the directions. We attached these to the walls 5 at a time and then listened , then proceeded with the next five listening again. We then did the last five and then added the 3 wide angle x pack of hft's.

Just with the first 5 on the wall made a huge difference. What I thought before was a good soundstage was nothing compared to having the full hft set up. The stage gets wider, deeper and comes out into the room more. I have a love seat in my listening room. So you are sitting just beside center.

Now with the hft's I can move my head slowly from one side to the other without losing the image. I still can't beleive it. That formerly small sweet spot is now much larger. Best of all the music sounds better than ever. I must add I also installed a synergistic research FAQ as well.

If you would like to increase the narrow ml sweet spot and want the best musical experience I suggest you give these a try. Synergistic Research has a money back guarantee. Have a look at the reviews.
Cheers, Greg

Last Axpona I purchased about the same set of HFT's that MOON did. I have had my eye one these the last couple of Axpona's but decided this was the year to just give them a try. Like MOON says there is a 30 day money back guarantee - give it a try. I had purchased the SR's Black Box a couple years back and a couple of their fuses which I never returned as I liked what they did. I would agree with MOON's perspective of what they do and how they do indeed enhance the listening experience.

So into the chamber so to speak!

This thread can easily go off track as cables or grounding threads have in the past. The same old tired arguments come up "How do they work?" Actually the better question is "Do you like the sound better?" However we never quite get to that just like RDC said as many of the people that will knock the HFT's will never try them. They will go on and on about how they are snake oil, don't understand how they work etc. for hours but few will actually try - then voice your opinion. Its kind of like complaining about an elected official yet you never voted. I have tried cables, grounding, Black Box and HFT's which many will have all kinds of negative comments about not understanding how they work. Yet do we really understand how many things work unless you have done all the design yourself? For the "I don't understand how they work crowd" do we really understand how a A or A/B amp works from one manufacturer to another? Obviously there are differences and some manufacturers do let on but many do not. So how do you buy one over another - OH I get it you listen? Got it!

 

[Brad225]

Mike, there is always a perpetual dark rain cloud floating around.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Mike, there is always a perpetual dark rain cloud floating around.

How can you guys actually support this idea that no one knows how they work, but hey I think I heard a difference?

Is there something that compels you to blindly accept that things that can in no logical way have an impact on the sound you hear, just do ?



This is not a dark rain cloud, this is the bright light of reason that is trying to help people not blunder around aimlessly in the dark.

 

[RDC]

In response to GW1800:
I don't think being in the "I don't understand how they work crowd" is a negative thing. I see that rather as a positive mentality as long as this leads to the question "How does it work?" before coming to a conclusion.

I agree with you that in every case concerning audio "you listen". And we know that our hearing, let alone the interpretation of sound by our brain, is different per person. And of course every environment and equipment is different too, influencing this. All 'givens' and nobody will argue with that (hopefully, but you never know ). So, yeah, you listen if it makes a difference to you.

If I understand you correctly, you seem to make a point that you only can and must listen to hear the effect of the HFTs. On this I have to disagree completely. If 2 persons (you and Moon) seem to be able to hear a difference, then there must be a measurable difference. It's just finding out how to measure it before we can interpreted it. As the effect of the HFTs is in de audible range, and we have already have numerous empirical studies to know what range that is, it should be measurable with a good calibrated microphone and some software like the kinds of REW.

That's the beauty of measurements, when done right, it SHOWS the difference independent of any positive or negative subjective opinion.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

That's the beauty of measurements, when done right, it SHOWS the difference independent of any positive or negative subjective opinion.

Agreed 100%

 

[Brad225]

How can you guys actually support this idea that no one knows how they work, but hey I think I heard a difference?

Is there something that compels you to blindly accept that things that can in no logical way have an impact on the sound you hear, just do ?



This is not a dark rain cloud, this is the bright light of reason that is trying to help people not blunder around aimlessly in the dark.

Mark, If people choose to purchase a product and feel it improves what they hear, good for them.

Why do you feel compelled to belittle them and tell them they are wrong, imposing your self proclaimed wealth of knowledge on a product you have NO experience with.

It just seems rude and unnecessary.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Mark, If people choose to purchase a product and feel it improves what they hear, good for them.

Why do you feel compelled to belittle them and tell them they are wrong, imposing your self proclaimed wealth of knowledge on a product you have NO experience with.

It just seems rude and unnecessary.

I understand your point.

And the truth is that there is no winning a debate over faith. All people are irrational and have large numbers of beliefs that are absolutely wrong. We are wired that way because it improved our chances to survive in large groups of people. It helps to promote peace and harmony if people just assume that the others in their tribe are correct without second guessing things and furthermore defend those beliefs over time.

I've learned enough psychology to question the accuracy of most of what we perceive. We are extremely fallible in our decision making ability.

So I choose not to believe in magic beans when there is no science behind them. I don't believe in magic of any kind but I very much believe in the power of our imaginations to support things that have no justification what-so-ever.

However, simply putting someone on the defensive makes their belief much more real to them which makes this all pretty much pointless.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Let me try a different approach.

Let's say that a Company produces an audio device of any kind and explains how it works using complete techno babble that makes no sense what-so-ever.

Their Marketing Speal:

Oh freddled gruntbuggly,
Thy micturations are to me,
As plurdled gabbleblotchits,
On a lurgid bee,
That mordiously hath blurted out,
Its earted jurtles, grumbling
Into a rancid festering confectious organ squealer.
Now the jurpling slayjid agrocrustles,
Are slurping hagrilly up the axlegrurts,
And living glupules frart and stipulate,
Like jowling meated liverslime,
Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes,
And hooptiously drangle me,
With crinkly bindlewurdles,mashurbitries.
Or else I shall rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon,
See if I don't!


But they offer a money back guarantee and a 30 day evaluation period.

Is your impulse to have this device sent to you to try even if there is no reason to think it could ever impact what you hear?

Do you not wonder if this is part of their ploy? You already have a beautiful sounding stereo. You put this in place and you still have a beautiful sounding stereo, but you listen closer and concentrate and think you hear something.

I see this is a very blatant con artist approach to sell a product that has no merit.

I realize that I will not change anyone's mind, because people's mind's typically don't respond to logic, but it still bothers me and I still try anyway.

 

[Brad225]

Let me try a different approach.

Let's say that a Company produces an audio device of any kind and explains how it works using complete techno babble that makes no sense what-so-ever.

Their Marketing Speal:

Oh freddled gruntbuggly,
Thy micturations are to me,
As plurdled gabbleblotchits,
On a lurgid bee,
That mordiously hath blurted out,
Its earted jurtles, grumbling
Into a rancid festering confectious organ squealer.
Now the jurpling slayjid agrocrustles,
Are slurping hagrilly up the axlegrurts,
And living glupules frart and stipulate,
Like jowling meated liverslime,
Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes,
And hooptiously drangle me,
With crinkly bindlewurdles,mashurbitries.
Or else I shall rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon,
See if I don't!


But they offer a money back guarantee and a 30 day evaluation period.

Is your impulse to have this device sent to you to try even if there is no reason to think it could ever impact what you hear?

Do you not wonder if this is part of their ploy? You already have a beautiful sounding stereo. You put this in place and you still have a beautiful sounding stereo, but you listen closer and concentrate and think you hear something.

I see this is a very blatant con artist approach to sell a product that has no merit.

I realize that I will not change anyone's mind, because people's mind's typically don't respond to logic, but it still bothers me and I still try anyway.

I would bet, you are the person, that would turn your neighbor in to the Home Owners Association when he has a patch of dead grass in his front lawn.

He has to do it my way. Its not suppose to be dead.

 

[GW1800]

Mark, If people choose to purchase a product and feel it improves what they hear, good for them.

Why do you feel compelled to belittle them and tell them they are wrong, imposing your self proclaimed wealth of knowledge on a product you have NO experience with.

It just seems rude and unnecessary.

Brad I'm with you.

If someone has actually taken the time to experiment with a new item and after back and forth review feels that product improves the sound yet has no idea why is that a bad thing? Apparently it is accordingly to some on this thread. Their approach is to belittle a product that does not have enough techno babel to satisfy them to even try to experiment. So they do nothing but bad mouth products that they have no experience with - How is that logical or fair?? That is not to say if some more technical explanation in text, verbally or measurements can be seen or taken are always welcome but as I once heard - Trust but Verify.

I have a general idea how a refrigerator works but no idea technically how one maybe superior to another so most are purchased on features. Maybe I should not buy any next time since I don't understand or believe what technical or sales babel I can find at the time. Same thing with a amp like I tried to describe before who really understands or can measure what is really going on at our level or even manufacturer to manufacturer so the best way is to actually try and compare yourself. However for some on this thread that is not an option as they are not satisfied with the level of detail to make them comfortable to even try. So they don't and I think that is just sad. A big part of audio for me is the discovery and the journey with my ears.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I would bet, you are the person, that would turn your neighbor in to the Home Owners Association when he has a patch of dead grass in his front lawn.

He has to do it my way. Its not suppose to be dead.

Interesting that you interpret my comments this way.

My neighbors and I leave each other alone. I have a couple friends I socialize with, but I could care less about lawns. Grass is designed to burn out and then green back up when rain comes. I have neighbors with sprinkler systems. One actually uses his. I don't.

I even have a neighbor who is a Trump supporter. We just don't talk politics.

I don't care if you have a $500,000 stereo system or a Lamborghini. I don't care if you have your speakers pin striped and engraved if you like how they look.

If you suggested that the earth is flat I would consider you exactly as ignorant as thinking things that absolutely cannot have an impact on sound quality do. It just happens to hit a nerve.

If you really consider me a vile and despicable person, I invite you to ban my account, and I will go in peace. I do admire Ethan Winer's efforts to educate people and he has been banned all over the place.


Edit: I think I know exactly why this subject bothers me. In the example you mentioned of a home owners association, that is an arbitrary man made rule. When we are dealing with Science and specifically Physics we are talking about irrefutable laws of nature. So power cables and USB cables can't have influence on what you hear. Why seems very easy to understand.

Amplifiers do have different properties and many are measurable, but there is a lot more complexity to what is going on. It is very dynamic and harder to pin down. So I won't argue about the differences between speakers or amplifiers and many other items because there is enough complexity as to be nuanced. I may be skeptical about some things, but I will give people the benefit of the doubt.

Room interactions and sound treatments and furniture and speaker placement are all interrelated as part of forming the sound that you hear.

In the case of things that absolutely can not have an impact like power cables and USB cables, there is just no way that they can have an effect.

So I could see experimenting with speaker placement, room treatments and amplifiers if you are so inclined. The issue I have is when people lump things that do have an effect with things that do not.

 

[Brad225]

Interesting that you interpret my comments this way.

My neighbors and I leave each other alone. I have a couple friends I socialize with, but I could care less about lawns. Grass is designed to burn out and then green back up when rain comes. I have neighbors with sprinkler systems. One actually uses his. I don't.

I even have a neighbor who is a Trump supporter. We just don't talk politics.

I don't care if you have a $500,000 stereo system or a Lamborghini. I don't care if you have your speakers pin striped and engraved if you like how they look.

If you suggested that the earth is flat I would consider you exactly as ignorant as thinking things that absolutely cannot have an impact on sound quality do. It just happens to hit a nerve.

If you really consider me a vile and despicable person, I invite you to ban my account, and I will go in peace. I do admire Ethan Winer's efforts to educate people and he has been banned all over the place.


Edit: I think I know exactly why this subject bothers me. In the example you mentioned of a home owners association, that is an arbitrary man made rule. When we are dealing with Science and specifically Physics we are talking about irrefutable laws of nature. So power cables and USB cables can't have influence on what you hear. Why seems very easy to understand.

Amplifiers do have different properties and many are measurable, but there is a lot more complexity to what is going on. It is very dynamic and harder to pin down. So I won't argue about the differences between speakers or amplifiers and many other items because there is enough complexity as to be nuanced. I may be skeptical about some things, but I will give people the benefit of the doubt.

Room interactions and sound treatments and furniture and speaker placement are all interrelated as part of forming the sound that you hear.

In the case of things that absolutely can not have an impact like power cables and USB cables, there is just no way that they can have an effect.

So I could see experimenting with speaker placement, room treatments and amplifiers if you are so inclined. The issue I have is when people lump things that do have an effect with things that do not.

Mark, I have never even come close to suggesting you are vile and despicable person. I'm truly sorry for you that when someone suggests you seem to go out of your way to be rude to people that is your take away.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Mark, I have never even come close to suggesting you are vile and despicable person. I'm truly sorry for you that when someone suggests you seem to go out of your way to be rude to people that is your take away.

When you describe a petty person who runs around making life miserable for his neighbors, I think vile and despicable.

This thread started off with questions including the nonsensical techo babble that a company is using to market their product. From my standpoint that was an invitation to comment on the nonsensical techo babble and the potential worth of the product.

The problem is that once a person says they believe that they heard something, now disputing that something has any merit becomes a rude attack on that person. I've tried to explain how people come to these beliefs without making a personal attack, but that is still seen as rude attack on that person.

Yet, it is fine to write off what I'm saying and apparently that is not considered rude because there is a consensus here that as an example power cables can make a difference in sound quality. Within this tribe I am the outsider and my opinion is considered disruptive and therefore dismissed in the name of keeping the peace.

Everything that is happening in this discussion right now is textbook.