Riddle me this batman...

[mwan]

As an owner of CLS IIz's since 2001 why of all the ML speakers do they seem to hold there value the worst?... they seem ( by all accounts of CLS owners) to be among the most beloved... why do they seem to show up for sale so cheap... I paid mega bucks in Canada to buy a pair... used they all seem to be around 2K or so... any ideas?

 

[eknuds01]

Depends on how the old they are and maybe all of the new releases we've seen over the last 3-4 years.

I've seen the prices of prodigies and odysseys drop a little bit since I've joined this forum and if I am not mistaken, those are are a newer line vs the CLS speakers. Having said that, I don't think ML made many CLS speakers, so you'd think the supply would be low.

But with the release of the Summit/Vantage/Vista and also the lower end 'design' line more and more ML speakers are on the used market.

 

[C.A.P]

Old ML speakers loose their value as son as they hit more than 5 years as the panels then are at the point of may be good for another 5 years or may be bad in 5 min after you own them . Me, I would buy a cheap set that may need some TLC and re panel them and re do the cabinets and walla! New speakers. Then again I am good at woodworking.

 

[Spike]

Hmm, I'll take a stab at answering. There are a few points against the CLS line-up:

1. Lack of bass by themselves. Need to be augmented with sub-woofer to extend into the bass region.
2. Out of all the MLs, the CLS line presents the toughest load (relatively speaking) to the amplifier. With the demanding load to drive the CLS full-range, plus the fact that the CLS are not too efficient (86db), one needs to match the CLS with a beefy, stable amplifier.
3. Large footprint by themselves, plus another footprint for the sub. Room placement and WAF comes into play here!
4. "Ancient" design dating back to...1985! The original design was of 1985, with updated design for the IIz model circa 1992. The 16-year-old design may play a big part into the decision making process of some.

Now, if one were to consider getting the CLS model, one would have to work through all of the above mentioned considerations and they may not be easy to overcome. The easier path to getting the ML sound may be to get the newer models and be done with it. That said, for those few willing to work through the issues, they are rewarded with excellent sound coming from the full-range 'static panels. Bottom line, the tried-and-true concept of "supply and demand" dictates the pricing in this scenario.

Spike

 

[mwan]

"Lack of bass by themselves. Need to be augmented with sub-woofer to extend into the bass region"

Its funny I hear this argument alot... I guess I don't like huge amounts of bass... I don't use a sub with mine and find them fine... I guess its all personal preference...

 

[Gordon Gray]

Worst?

As an owner of CLS IIz's since 2001 why of all the ML speakers do they seem to hold there value the worst?... they seem ( by all accounts of CLS owners) to be among the most beloved... why do they seem to show up for sale so cheap... I paid mega bucks in Canada to buy a pair... used they all seem to be around 2K or so... any ideas?

With all due respect, worst?

By what standard and other brands can you cite to validate this assertion?

I sold a pair of SL3's two years ago (they were 5 years old at the time) for $1,400. Current going street price is $1,300. I think that's fairly stable.

I admit that the CLS line may be an exception. However, my CLS2A's were approx. $3,800 new retail. And this was in 1988. Using $4K as a benchmark, a 15 to 20 year old speaker that can be sold for 50% + of its original retail sounds like a pretty darn good return to me. And, this doesn't take into account the number of hours of listening enjoyment you've gotten out of your speakers.

Once that is taken into account, I think ML speakers are probably much better (hold value) than most brands that are out there.

GG

PS:As an example, look at the extremely well finished speakers that have a strange resemblance to a trash can. The previous model (I think they're up to 8 now) can be had for 50% of the original purchase price and they're barely two years old. We're talking a minimum $10K loss in value in 18 to 24 months. Now that's bad.

 

[mwan]

Ah yes...

Actually Gordon I was thinking only within the ML family... but yes those garbage cans on wheels do seem to depreciate rapidly... ... back when I purchased mine they were about 6500 cdn... back when our dollar was worth about 65 cents us... now I see them sell regularly for around that 2K mark... I guess in us$ its 50% more like 33% cdn... ah well thats currency I guess...

 

[rhd1953]

Start with the CLS price:
new they were $3,800 or so
if they're +5 years old, may need panels (`$900)
if they're early CLS's, may need/want electronics upgrade (ask C.A.P.).
some of the other ML speakers cost much more than the (new) CLS's did.

So, really the CLS's are a good buy, but they're not 1955 T-bird (up, up and away $$$$). The exact price depends on their condition: if they already have new panels and upgraded electronics you would pay top price.

 

[Adamo]

5 yrs for stat panel replacement? That seems a little lean. I spoke with Jim just the other day about Panel replacement times in my Odysseys and Ascents and he quoted me a number much higher than that. With consistent vaccuming in a non smoking humidity controlled environment, he said 12+ years easy. I vaccum mine twice per month, so I should fall within that time frame. Is it that much different with the CLS? I will admit I did not inquire about them on my phone call.

 

[mwan]

5 yrs for stat panel replacement? That seems a little lean. I spoke with Jim just the other day about Panel replacement times in my Odysseys and Ascents and he quoted me a number much higher than that. With consistent vaccuming in a non smoking humidity controlled environment, he said 12+ years easy. I vaccum mine twice per month, so I should fall within that time frame. Is it that much different with the CLS? I will admit I did not inquire about them on my phone call.

I guess also that panel replacement has to do with usage... I have a pair of Aerius in my bedroon and they are circa 96 or 97... I don't use them much but they sound as good as the day I picked them up...

 

[C.A.P]

5 yrs for stat panel replacement? That seems a little lean. I spoke with Jim just the other day about Panel replacement times in my Odysseys and Ascents and he quoted me a number much higher than that. With consistent vaccuming in a non smoking humidity controlled environment, he said 12+ years easy. I vaccum mine twice per month, so I should fall within that time frame. Is it that much different with the CLS? I will admit I did not inquire about them on my phone call.

Depending on the CLS model you have! Some of the newr CLS II and IIz have a power sensor shut off that will power them down after a certain amount of time. That alone will save panel life. Now some purest say that they like the original CLS or CLS1 series as it has no sensing circuit to get in the way of the sound. (take it for what its worth ) Its the humidity and dust that will ruin them. When they are fully charged they attract both at a faster rate. I have had a panel go soft on my Quest just from dust. It was good as new after a clean up. With your Odysseys ,you have the newer vacuume deposited film with clear spar technology. They are a bit more durable than the old panels. That being said , they still do not like the offenders. You also have the power sensing supply that will power down after 10 min of no use .

 

[rhd1953]

We are talking about CLS's...a full range panel

A CLS panel will see higher power levels and (also a larger surface area) it will be "exposed more" to arcing.

Even being careful (and NOT using an equalizer or such to boost the bass), when really pushing the CLS's a surprise spike may come along and produce an arc (typically in the very low frequencies). Enough arcs, over time, result in "weak" or broken down insulation...panel replacement time.

ALL the other ML's have a cone woofer handling the lowest frequencies...less watts to the panel, I would say. Less chance of arcs?

I replaced my panels and no amount of cleaning would have repaired the panels. I have a post somewhere on here with photos of the arc spots.

 

[mraudio]

"Lack of bass by themselves. Need to be augmented with sub-woofer to extend into the bass region"

Its funny I hear this argument alot... I guess I don't like huge amounts of bass... I don't use a sub with mine and find them fine... I guess its all personal preference...

I also get excellent bass response out of my CLSIIA. I have never really seen a need for a subwoofer.

 

[Adamo]

A CLS panel will see higher power levels and (also a larger surface area) it will be "exposed more" to arcing.

Even being careful (and NOT using an equalizer or such to boost the bass), when really pushing the CLS's a surprise spike may come along and produce an arc (typically in the very low frequencies). Enough arcs, over time, result in "weak" or broken down insulation...panel replacement time.

ALL the other ML's have a cone woofer handling the lowest frequencies...less watts to the panel, I would say. Less chance of arcs?

I replaced my panels and no amount of cleaning would have repaired the panels. I have a post somewhere on here with photos of the arc spots.

I believe that would probably be a reason for pre-mature panel replacement. Like it was stated before, my Ascents and Odysseys both power down after 10 min of being idle. If the panel was on constantly, it would be attracting a lot more dust and dirt. I do vaccum all the panels every other week just to keep them performing their best.

 

[Peter Hogan]

A CLS panel will see higher power levels and (also a larger surface area) it will be "exposed more" to arcing.

Even being careful (and NOT using an equalizer or such to boost the bass), when really pushing the CLS's a surprise spike may come along and produce an arc (typically in the very low frequencies). Enough arcs, over time, result in "weak" or broken down insulation...panel replacement time.

Hi,
I drive my CLS's with 600 watts/channel (a Carver PM-1.5), and have never had them arc. If played very loud, you can actually hear the membrane slapping the stators on low bass, but it still refuses to arc. Maybe my stators have better insulation...?

Just my .02,
Peter

 

[MiTT]

I know I'm a relative newbie when it comes to the CLS, but much like Peter, when I have driven them "HARD" trying to get the measure of them with my BAT VK-6200 (800W into 2 ohms), I have never had any arching either. Mine are IIz's, so I'm sure there are advances that ML had made over the years to address the issue.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

I have never had the arcing problem either.

Jeff

 

[Bernard]

You guys with the CLS's are driving me crazy! Wish I had a pair, or the funds to buy the CLX's and turn the tables.

 

[mwan]

You guys with the CLS's are driving me crazy! Wish I had a pair, or the funds to buy the CLX's and turn the tables.

I think you missed a pair recently... they were either in Kitchener or London... keep your eyes open they are nearly always reasonably priced ( the original theme of the thread...)

 

[raygunn]

Ditto on the beastly-Powered Carver amps...

I drive my CLS 2z's with a Sunfire Siggy II and with >2k on tap at 2 ohms, the CLS's play at ear-bleeding volumes without any sign of strain on the speakers nor the amp.

Also, I've been running ML's for nearly 20 years (always with Carver amps)and have never encountered an arc'ing problem. The only exception was when my current speakers were brand new. One of the speakers produced a really nice bright blue spark at the lower right side of the CLS panel. As usual, Jim Power diagnosed the problem and fixed it immediately. There wasn't enough insulation tape covering the wire's solder point on the panel. No big deal.

I recall having friends with Acoustats, Infinity's, and even Crown's, they all had to have spare panels handy for when they arc'ed and failed!
..such is the magic of our wonderful ML's!!!! :bowdown:

Hi,
I drive my CLS's with 600 watts/channel (a Carver PM-1.5), and have never had them arc. If played very loud, you can actually hear the membrane slapping the stators on low bass, but it still refuses to arc. Maybe my stators have better insulation...?

Just my .02,
Peter