Pre-built arrays
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I have no idea, but I imagine they could become quite popular once the new CLX comes out. (Can you say: "mini statements.") JonFo, I think I hear a business venture calling.
Pcar928fan
Well-known member
Jonathan has already PROVED he can do this stuff...now lets see how many of these things we can get him to make! I would think about trading out the Prodigy for something like that! Something in the $17k - $22k range would be PERFECT for a set up like that! Run tubes to the panel and some NICE SS amps to the array...YEA BABY!
OMG!
What have I started
You know, I was just daydreaming the other day about finding a commercial Line Array to use as the basis for augmenting my rear Sequel’s.
If enough people want in, we could either get a ‘group buy’ on some existing design, or commission a set number of boxes from a factory, as well as bulk purchase of the right number of drivers. I’d be happy to coordinate.
If we ‘do our own’, we’d need to agree the specs; I’ll start with some in a later post.
In the meantime, the hunt for a commercial solution is on. We’re looking for something that has at least 4’ of mid-bass drivers (5” to 7.5”), coupled with a reasonable cabinet (don’t expect furniture quality from the pro-audio side, they’re into practicality). The cabinet can always be veneered or re-finished to suit your décor.
Trouble is, most sound reinforcement LA’s include tweeters or other high frequency transducers. Also, cost is an issue, many seem to be quite expensive.
A custom order for six sets of custom LA’s might be cheaper. We’ll have too see.
Here is an interesting Planar Ribbon / Line Array from SLS speakers:
http://www.slsloudspeakers.com/content/view/201/107/
On of those minus the tweeters is exactly what we’re looking for.
No matter what, a pre-built solution will still require a good bit of setup to get it right.
As the fine-tuning of the speaker processor is what really makes and active crossover, multi-driver element system really sing in YOUR room.
Doing a pure business driven venture to focus on a ML specific line array (I’ve got some really cool designs in mind) would wind up in units costing around $5K per pair, including processors (but no amps). It would also require the owner to have pre-amp outs, amp ins for current speaker amplification, add another amp for the line-array and be willing to invest another couple hundred dollars in an ETF software measurement rig.
Can you say ‘small market’, sure, I know you could
Just for grins, how many here would go for that to add on to your existing units, vs getting the expected ‘mini statement’ from ML for $17K?
What have I started
You know, I was just daydreaming the other day about finding a commercial Line Array to use as the basis for augmenting my rear Sequel’s.
If enough people want in, we could either get a ‘group buy’ on some existing design, or commission a set number of boxes from a factory, as well as bulk purchase of the right number of drivers. I’d be happy to coordinate.
If we ‘do our own’, we’d need to agree the specs; I’ll start with some in a later post.
In the meantime, the hunt for a commercial solution is on. We’re looking for something that has at least 4’ of mid-bass drivers (5” to 7.5”), coupled with a reasonable cabinet (don’t expect furniture quality from the pro-audio side, they’re into practicality). The cabinet can always be veneered or re-finished to suit your décor.
Trouble is, most sound reinforcement LA’s include tweeters or other high frequency transducers. Also, cost is an issue, many seem to be quite expensive.
A custom order for six sets of custom LA’s might be cheaper. We’ll have too see.
Here is an interesting Planar Ribbon / Line Array from SLS speakers:
http://www.slsloudspeakers.com/content/view/201/107/
On of those minus the tweeters is exactly what we’re looking for.
No matter what, a pre-built solution will still require a good bit of setup to get it right.
As the fine-tuning of the speaker processor is what really makes and active crossover, multi-driver element system really sing in YOUR room.
Doing a pure business driven venture to focus on a ML specific line array (I’ve got some really cool designs in mind) would wind up in units costing around $5K per pair, including processors (but no amps). It would also require the owner to have pre-amp outs, amp ins for current speaker amplification, add another amp for the line-array and be willing to invest another couple hundred dollars in an ETF software measurement rig.
Can you say ‘small market’, sure, I know you could
Just for grins, how many here would go for that to add on to your existing units, vs getting the expected ‘mini statement’ from ML for $17K?
Line Array enclosures
What a coincidence. Just yesterday I was thinking about building some Line Arrays. Then the thought of how to design them made me think again.
In my previously work life I built custom furniture and speciality wood work (libraries, wine cellars, raised panel walls in large custom homes) and have built speakers for my self. A set of folded corner horns copies of Klipshorns was the last set I built about 25 years ago. I sold them 5 years later. I loved the low end those had.
If the number of speakers was not large. I would consider building some boxes for the material costs. People could finish these themselves (preferably).
I have the ability to veneer 4' easily in my veneer press and could do any species of wood. I would have to work out something for the extra time with anyone that wanted that.
I am just starting a new building on our property for my shop and storage. All of my equipment has been in storage for a few years since hurricane Charlie took the roof off the building I was renting in. We moved to Tampa to be closer to another business we owned so its been on the back burner for a while. The shop should be up and running in June. After having a shop for 20 years I'm ready to be back in there for at least a few hours week.
Lets see where the goes and if the number isn't to large I would do that.
What a coincidence. Just yesterday I was thinking about building some Line Arrays. Then the thought of how to design them made me think again.
In my previously work life I built custom furniture and speciality wood work (libraries, wine cellars, raised panel walls in large custom homes) and have built speakers for my self. A set of folded corner horns copies of Klipshorns was the last set I built about 25 years ago. I sold them 5 years later. I loved the low end those had.
If the number of speakers was not large. I would consider building some boxes for the material costs. People could finish these themselves (preferably).
I have the ability to veneer 4' easily in my veneer press and could do any species of wood. I would have to work out something for the extra time with anyone that wanted that.
I am just starting a new building on our property for my shop and storage. All of my equipment has been in storage for a few years since hurricane Charlie took the roof off the building I was renting in. We moved to Tampa to be closer to another business we owned so its been on the back burner for a while. The shop should be up and running in June. After having a shop for 20 years I'm ready to be back in there for at least a few hours week.
Lets see where the goes and if the number isn't to large I would do that.
IWalker
Well-known member
You could also go for a few different designs, the lower end ones being more "standard"...the higher end ones being more flexibile...and then build to order on those (so you don't have such an outlay). You could realistically make a pretty nice budget set of towers that would be 8" wide, 24" deep, and 48" tall for around $500 (just parts cost of MDF, wire, stuffing, and drivers) ... but that would be using dayton drivers, as opposed to the awesome adire extremis ones. (assuming a 7" driver) But again...$1000/$1500 price point vs $5000+ price point ($1000/$1500 reflects a veneered/finished cabinet, plus markup for build time, margin, etc. ... speaker processer is $350 or so on top of that, so $1500-$2000 or so total cost)
Man, I'd love to do that (the smaller/cheaper ones) if I had the space/tools to do it!
Then again, if someone is spending the 7k for a CLX, they'd probably want to spend the extra to get the better tower...
I was discussing this with jtwrace, and he pointed out to me that Kinergetics used to make these sub towers, and VMPS still does...or something along those lines.
http://www.vmpsaudio.com/subwoofers.htm
"Bass option II is a new 180 cm tall powered woofer column ($4950ea), the VLA (Very Large Array) with five 30 cm drivers plus one side-firing 38 cm. It is very heavy, 135 kg (300 lbs), use one or two. Dimensions are 183 H x 37 W x 48 D cm (72”H x 14 ½”W x 19”D). " -That's each speaker, not for a pair
Man, I'd love to do that (the smaller/cheaper ones) if I had the space/tools to do it!
Then again, if someone is spending the 7k for a CLX, they'd probably want to spend the extra to get the better tower...
I was discussing this with jtwrace, and he pointed out to me that Kinergetics used to make these sub towers, and VMPS still does...or something along those lines.
http://www.vmpsaudio.com/subwoofers.htm
"Bass option II is a new 180 cm tall powered woofer column ($4950ea), the VLA (Very Large Array) with five 30 cm drivers plus one side-firing 38 cm. It is very heavy, 135 kg (300 lbs), use one or two. Dimensions are 183 H x 37 W x 48 D cm (72”H x 14 ½”W x 19”D). " -That's each speaker, not for a pair
IWalker
Well-known member
Ah! We have a hidden treasure here in the ML Club!
Rough estimate, what would a cabinet made of 1" MDF, 9"x48"x24", with 2 horizontal braces (1"x7"x22") one up 16" from the bottom, one up 32" (with the center routed out), and then 6 7" diameter holes evenly spaced, cut into the front (with a 6" cutout in the middle, and then a 1" edge that's only routed out 1/8"...so the drivers can mount flush)...cost? Unfinished, Finished with a basic veneer, Finished with a fancy veneer (call it rotary cut bubinga, for grins)
Also, how much time do you think that would take you (in work hours)? (for the cabinent, and for any finishing?)
Rough estimate, what would a cabinet made of 1" MDF, 9"x48"x24", with 2 horizontal braces (1"x7"x22") one up 16" from the bottom, one up 32" (with the center routed out), and then 6 7" diameter holes evenly spaced, cut into the front (with a 6" cutout in the middle, and then a 1" edge that's only routed out 1/8"...so the drivers can mount flush)...cost? Unfinished, Finished with a basic veneer, Finished with a fancy veneer (call it rotary cut bubinga, for grins)
Also, how much time do you think that would take you (in work hours)? (for the cabinent, and for any finishing?)
IWalker
Well-known member
I can hear the gears in JonFo's brain turning as I write this. Let's see, three CLX's across the front paired with three mid-bass towers, combined with a couple of Descent i's and Meridian Tri-Field processing. . .
I would definitely be interested in a pair of these in the $2-5k price range to pair with the CLXs. Of course, I should probably enjoy the Summits for a year or two before I decide to upgrade them to the CLX plus mid-bass tower. (I am assuming the Summits would not benefit from such a tower.)
Also, I imagine that it would be helpful to know the final details of the CLX design prior to designing and building these mid-bass line arrays. But then again I have no clue about speaker design, so I will defer to others more knowledgeable than myself on the necessary specs. I think it is a fabulous idea, though.
I would definitely be interested in a pair of these in the $2-5k price range to pair with the CLXs. Of course, I should probably enjoy the Summits for a year or two before I decide to upgrade them to the CLX plus mid-bass tower.
(I am assuming the Summits would not benefit from such a tower.)Also, I imagine that it would be helpful to know the final details of the CLX design prior to designing and building these mid-bass line arrays. But then again I have no clue about speaker design, so I will defer to others more knowledgeable than myself on the necessary specs. I think it is a fabulous idea, though.
Sambob2
Well-known member
Excellent idea going on here!
I'd love to help or be involved if help is needed as well. DIY skills are very good here with a ton of tools (wood, mechanical, and electrical) and audio background as well. Heck, call me a wood worker geek, but three weeks ago I used a dial indicator to dial in my table saw to within .003" parallel! Working with wood is only a hobby...one of a few.
If this does develope into something and the work load gets to be to great for any person, I'd love to lend a hand. Feel free to call on me for any aspect of the build. I'm in!
Sam
I'd love to help or be involved if help is needed as well. DIY skills are very good here with a ton of tools (wood, mechanical, and electrical) and audio background as well. Heck, call me a wood worker geek, but three weeks ago I used a dial indicator to dial in my table saw to within .003" parallel! Working with wood is only a hobby...one of a few.
If this does develope into something and the work load gets to be to great for any person, I'd love to lend a hand. Feel free to call on me for any aspect of the build. I'm in!
Sam
Sambob2,
OK. Get to it. IWalker will throw some ideas out to you. It's very easy for me to get them since I am from NJ. My mother in law lives 20 min from you and a very good friend of mine lives in Netcong. What do you think?
OK. Get to it. IWalker will throw some ideas out to you. It's very easy for me to get them since I am from NJ. My mother in law lives 20 min from you and a very good friend of mine lives in Netcong. What do you think?
$1200.00 for the plain veneer cabinets and about $1500.00 to 1800.00 for the high end veneer. A cabinet shop has to recoup setup time/cost. Using a line boring machine and standard shaper/router work I estimate about 4 hours per cabinet before finishing and another 4 hours (not counting drying time) to finish. Just a guess based on some woodworking estimates.
IWalker
Well-known member
Thanks risabet...helps a lot to have a reference point. If I can find a woodshop, I'll try to build a budget set myself (or give a willing party the specs) to see how quickly/cheaply I can make a quality cabinet...and then see where to go from there.
Your material cost is relatively low. The 1" MDF is about $50 a sheet. You need just over 1 sheet per enclosure if my figuring is correct.
I would suggest using an MDF brand name of Ultralite or Trupan. They are made with wood fiber just like other MDF. It is a little bit lighter and it uses a wax binder as opposed to Ureaformaldehyde glue. With formaldehyde glue even if you seal all surfaces my experience is it will still out gas vapors through the finish. People who are sensitive to this will have burning eyes, nose and throat.
If one design is settled on making a few jigs is no big deal. I have always hated production work so I would only cut pieces for maybe 4-6 enclosures at one time. I think Risabit's time estimate is probably pretty good. The fabrication time would be almost split between construction and veneering. This also depends on the veneer. Some highly figured veneers are much more difficult to seam together and glue down.
Finishing can be a whole different thing depending on what type of finish one wants. There is a big difference from a standard furniture finish with grain showing and a filled piano finish that is mirror like.
You can spend a few hours on something simple just to have a speck of whatever drop in your lacquer and you have a repair that might take almost as long as the entire finishing job should have.
There are many beautiful veneers available. I buy most of mine from Certainly Wood http://www.certainlywood.com/woodmenu.asp Take a look at what they offer. For each box you will need 20 sq. ft. not including the back. But depending on the veneer you will need to buy 50-100% extra for trimming and matching a nice pattern.
Quarter cut Bubinga is about $2 a foot. You might spend up to $80 per enclosure. If you want an exact grain match on all sides you would need to buy enough consecutive pieces out of the veneer flitch to be able to cut from the same end to book-match the width you need. In that case you might spend $200+ for veneer. Your cost would come down if someone else wanted the same veneer and you could split the cost and use pieces from further down the veneer.
It might be good to have people in different areas willing to build as packaging and shipping will be another concern. Each box will be about 80+ pounds I would think.
I would still be willing to build some basic boxes for people once I am up and running again with my shop. At least until the volume gets out of hand. But there will obviously be other costs involved depending on what someone wanted.
Another possibility for DIYer is there are a number of self adhesive backed veneers available you can stick down and trim with a razor blade and sand the edge smooth for those who don't have much experience with this type of projects. For finishing there are some very good brush able finishes you can apply and rub out for a very nice result. It just depends on how much one wants to get involved.
Lets see where we go from here.
I would suggest using an MDF brand name of Ultralite or Trupan. They are made with wood fiber just like other MDF. It is a little bit lighter and it uses a wax binder as opposed to Ureaformaldehyde glue. With formaldehyde glue even if you seal all surfaces my experience is it will still out gas vapors through the finish. People who are sensitive to this will have burning eyes, nose and throat.
If one design is settled on making a few jigs is no big deal. I have always hated production work so I would only cut pieces for maybe 4-6 enclosures at one time. I think Risabit's time estimate is probably pretty good. The fabrication time would be almost split between construction and veneering. This also depends on the veneer. Some highly figured veneers are much more difficult to seam together and glue down.
Finishing can be a whole different thing depending on what type of finish one wants. There is a big difference from a standard furniture finish with grain showing and a filled piano finish that is mirror like.
You can spend a few hours on something simple just to have a speck of whatever drop in your lacquer and you have a repair that might take almost as long as the entire finishing job should have.
There are many beautiful veneers available. I buy most of mine from Certainly Wood http://www.certainlywood.com/woodmenu.asp Take a look at what they offer. For each box you will need 20 sq. ft. not including the back. But depending on the veneer you will need to buy 50-100% extra for trimming and matching a nice pattern.
Quarter cut Bubinga is about $2 a foot. You might spend up to $80 per enclosure. If you want an exact grain match on all sides you would need to buy enough consecutive pieces out of the veneer flitch to be able to cut from the same end to book-match the width you need. In that case you might spend $200+ for veneer. Your cost would come down if someone else wanted the same veneer and you could split the cost and use pieces from further down the veneer.
It might be good to have people in different areas willing to build as packaging and shipping will be another concern. Each box will be about 80+ pounds I would think.
I would still be willing to build some basic boxes for people once I am up and running again with my shop. At least until the volume gets out of hand. But there will obviously be other costs involved depending on what someone wanted.
Another possibility for DIYer is there are a number of self adhesive backed veneers available you can stick down and trim with a razor blade and sand the edge smooth for those who don't have much experience with this type of projects. For finishing there are some very good brush able finishes you can apply and rub out for a very nice result. It just depends on how much one wants to get involved.
Lets see where we go from here.
Pcar928fan
Well-known member
It will be very cool if this works out...I would guess that you would need an active cross over for them as well...
It would be a great alternative for those with plenty of room. CLX and array, in Piano black ... MMMmmmm!! That would be yummy, but I doubt that ML is going to do any Piano black anytime soon, at least unless there is a HUGE outcry for it because of what Brad said about finishing... It is a tough finish to get JUST RIGHT! Very time consuming which means costly!
It would be a great alternative for those with plenty of room. CLX and array, in Piano black ... MMMmmmm!! That would be yummy, but I doubt that ML is going to do any Piano black anytime soon, at least unless there is a HUGE outcry for it because of what Brad said about finishing... It is a tough finish to get JUST RIGHT! Very time consuming which means costly!
The heaviest sheet goods ever. MDF panels are a hernia waiting to happen. Sonically however I might use HDF which will be less resonant but I'm not sure by how much.
Can you say "Carpathian Elm Burl" anyone, I knew you could!
Triple my estimate if you want Piano Black! Not worth the time or effort IMO.
Be careful what you ask for, I can see everyone on the site sending you cabinet orders. As for me no way, I don't have the room and am building kitchen cabinets that the wife demands I complete
risabet,
Not a problem with the Carpathian Elm Burl. I built office furniture with it for my wife's business partner. It is a bit delicate and very wavy in it's raw state.
I did a library for a clients home that the walls were Olive Ash Burl with a pattern match around the room from floor to ceiling. I flew to the mill in Ohio and looked through about 70,000 sq ft of Ash Burl to find a flitch ( the entire tree section sliced into veneer) that was the right size for the room. I probably still have 500 ft of it left waiting for the right project.
Not a problem with the Carpathian Elm Burl. I built office furniture with it for my wife's business partner. It is a bit delicate and very wavy in it's raw state.
I did a library for a clients home that the walls were Olive Ash Burl with a pattern match around the room from floor to ceiling. I flew to the mill in Ohio and looked through about 70,000 sq ft of Ash Burl to find a flitch ( the entire tree section sliced into veneer) that was the right size for the room. I probably still have 500 ft of it left waiting for the right project.
