power cord?

[Maniax]

Seriously, do have a listen to a good aftermarket power cable vs the stock cable. The difference is OBVIOUS. Its not psychological because it is reproducible, and for different people too.
I couldn't believe it myself at first, but when I heard it, I HAD TO BELIEVE IT.

If there's one thing I've learnt, every single little thing matters!

 

[FISH_MAN]

hey at least they look cool

the only explanation I can think of is that the factory cords are of such
poor quility and gauge that the internal amp is overloading them.I just can not believe that logan would not send us good power cables?

 

[RichTeer]

are you guys saying that after 150+- feet of romex the last 3-4ft matter
come on.

You're thinking about it the wrong way round: the power cord isn't the last 3-4 feet. From the amp's perspective it's the first 3-4 feet...

 

[FISH_MAN]

Omg

You're thinking about it the wrong way round: the power cord isn't the last 3-4 feet. From the amp's perspective it's the first 3-4 feet...

is their anybody who trully has an intimate knowledge of electricity listening not just another audiophile? maybe they could explain what is going on.

 

[MOON]

Fishman,

The powercords that came from the factory with your logans are worth about $3.00, no kidding . I am not an electician , but when I put the Foundation Research LC'1's that you see in my picture on my previous post , it made a vast difference. Possibly this is due to the power conditioning built right into the cord,the black box in the picture.Anyway , I wouldn't go without them after hearing the difference.

 

[FISH_MAN]

more on cables

my logans sound good not beacuse of the $8,500 dollar price tag but beacuse
martin logans speakers are built on solid engineering principles that they can explain on their website and so on. I would like to hear a real explanation of why these power cords are better.

If this is real I would be happy to hand over the money for new cords!

 

[nsgarch]

Here goes . . . . .

ALL amps should use 10AWG or larger power cord conductors (even if the amps are not that high powered) because the name of the game with amps (and apparently DACs for some reason) is energy TRANSFER. This is what Jim Aud of Purist has always emphasized, and why his PCs are among the best sounding. His Dominus PC is an effective 9AWG and I think PS Audio even makes a 6 or an 8 AWG PC! This ALWAYS raises the question we've heard a million times: "what's the point of using a PC that has bigger conductors than the ones in your wall?"

The answer is that they do different things. The wall wiring is like a reservoir of AC. The hot conductor is just sitting there cycling from plus to minus looking for a ground. It's sort of like a big river flowing past your outlet, and all of a sudden, you stick a power cord on it or in it (like a water wheel) to get some of this flowing energy. Now, there's lots of potential energy stored in those wall conductors, even if they're not that big, because they have the reserve (inertia) provided by the entire generating system. So if you can stick a big enough pipe into the stream, you can use it and return it back to the stream (complete the circuit) without any bottlenecks.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the large conductors of a PC have a different function than the size of the wire in the wall. The wires in the wall just have to carry their assigned amperage without getting hot and burning down the house. The PC has to grab that energy, use it (spin the water wheel) and return it to the river without any traffic jams. Even a lower powered amp has constantly fluctuating energy requirements, every microsecond, so it's important that it can get exactly what it requires and then return the power to ground without encountering resistance, AC intermodulation distortion (a big problem with small conductors on med to hi powered equipment), inductance and other impediments that build up in smaller conductors. Again, with PCs, if "quick and clean" energy transfer is accomplished, power handling capacity is pretty much automatically taken care of.

And while we're on the subject of OEM PCs, most of them aren't that bad. For one thing, the conductors are WELDED to the plugs before the molded casing goes on, so it's a great connection, but usually they are about one or two conductor sizes too small for my taste. The second problem is that they are (generally) unshielded; although in defense of the manufacturer, let me explain that if they WERE shielded, the shield would have to be connected to the ground pin of the plugs AT EACH END! Otherwise, the manufacturer couldn't get UL Approval on his product. If the shield IS connected at BOTH ends, guess what?? You have a giant ground loop!! So even though all digital equipment (DACs, processors, CDPs) should be supplied with shielded power cords to keep them from radiating digital RFI (hash) into the air, they usually aren't, and so OEM cords on that kind of equipment should always be replaced IMO with PCs that have a "floating" shield (only connected to the ground pin at the AC plug end.) For the DIY inclined, if you got a shielded OEM cord with your digital equipment (it'll say so on the jacket), then do this: cut off the IEC connector and strip back the jacket AND THE SHIELD an inch or so. Slide some matching black shrink tubing over it and connect the conductors to a new IEC plug of good quality. Voilà! You have an OEM PC with a floating shield!

In any case, all three conductors in a power cord are connected to the plugs at each end. One to hot, one to neutral and one to ground. If, in addition, the cord has a shield (usually a metal "braided tube" right under the outer jacket and surrounding the three conductors) it will capture any stray RFI in the air and drain "it" to ground, by connecting the shield to the ground pin of the AC plug. As long as the shield is ONLY connected at ONE END (the ground pin of the AC plug) it cannot conduct any current (like from one end of the cord to the other.) If however, it's connected to the ground pin of the IEC plug as well, then you have two separate but connected "wires" (the shield-wire, and the ground conductor-wire) connected together at each end of the PC. If you draw a diagram of this, it's what's called (in circuit terminology) a loop -- in this case a "ground" loop. It can then act as an antenna that will pick up electromagnetic radiation (mostly 60 cycle AC from the cord itself, or other nearby sources of AC) and you get devilish hum. Some PCs (like Cardas for instance) employ a double floating shield. There are two concentric shields (insulated from each other) and one is connected to the AC plug ground pin (only), and the other is connected to the IEC ground pin (only) and I guess that's about as good as it gets ;--)

Back to our ML speakers. I don't know what kind(s) of OEM PC's are currently being supplied w/ ML speakers. I think my CLS's originally came with 16 foot long 18 AWG unshielded 3 conductor Belden cord. I still have them somewhere if anyone wants to make their CLS totally stock!! However, I think any PC that long should be shielded for sure.

Self-powered hybrids are another story altogether! If I owned a Vantage or Summit (because they have power amps in them) I'd be using a 10 AWG or larger PC.

 

[Brad225]

I had the same feelings you have until I tried better PC's. What quality and how much you feel comfortable spending is a personal issue.

I use all Shunyata cables and have heard a difference with each successive installation. Though some made a much larger change than others.

Here is a link to FAQ at Shunyata Research. The owner Caelin Gabriel worked for NAS and his speciality was extreme low level noise detection for the Navy before forming his own company.

A number of big names in the audio industry use there cabling.

I was in contact with Grant Samuelson there head of sales a few weeks ago with a question about PC's for my CLS's and he said when Martin Logan was in the design stage with the CLX they asked Shunyata if they could provide them with a specific PC for the speakers. At that time nothing had been worked out for there needs and since ML is in production it will probably not happen.

I am not suggesting you purchase Shunyata cables. There is just some good information their site.

If you decide to purchase a PC to see for your self I think most well designed cables will all provide similar results for you.




http://www.shunyata.com/Content/FAQ-Tech.html

 

[C.A.P]

I can agree with you all on the larger sized cord like a 6 , 8 , 10 awg but no way I would ever pay 1k for 6 foot power cord. They are easy as hell to make. You can make 4 of them for under $300 with 6-3 wire and Hospital grade Hubble plugs and some wire sleeving and shrink tube ! ! ITS ELECTRICITY, and it could care less what 6 gage cord its going through. As for the CLS I will have mine done this week and test out the results.

 

[TileproNC]

I did say it might be in my head.I do listen to my system atleast 20 to 25 hours a week so I think not.But who knows. I agree and I would never spend 1k on PCs but the ones that came with the MLs seem cheap. It cost me 140 to make 3. In my mind? Maybe. Am I pleased ? yes and thats what counts
Now for some upgraded speaker cables...and if anyone says thers no difference there.......well may be I better not

 

[nsgarch]

I can agree with you all on the larger sized cord like a 6 , 8 , 10 awg but no way I would ever pay 1k for 6 foot power cord. They are easy as hell to make. You can make 4 of them for under $300 with 6-3 wire and Hospital grade Hubble plugs and some wire sleeving and shrink tube ! ! ITS ELECTRICITY, and it could care less what 6 gage cord its going through. As for the CLS I will have mine done this week and test out the results.

They are easy to make if you use standard 3/10 or 3/12 shielded. In fact Home depot sells Carol Cable that's quite nice (not shielded though). The thing is that shop tools don't care about inductance effects on the AC waveform or intermodulation distortion created by the common winding/twist configurations. It is all ELECTRICITY to them ;-) I have paid $1k for 2m PC's, ($2500 msrp and they made an obvious improvement over the same gauge HD variety HOWEVER they incorporated several refinements and additional components/elements such as:

• 9 AWG copper/gold alloy conductors
• fluid jacket for mechanical isolation
• separate ground drain wire
• unequal hot and neutral legs
• premium plugs/connectors
• solder-less terminations
• foil shielding

All of which add up to better (i.e. faster and undistorted) energy transfer which is the only real objective. I have just two of these megabuck (Purist Dominus) PC's so they've been VERY CAREFULLY DEPLOYED!! One goes from the wall to my Exactpower EP-15A regenerator, and the other goes from the regenerator to my McIntosh amp. All the other chilluns get hand-me-downs!

 

[pidigi]

are you guys saying that after 150+- feet of romex the last 3-4ft matter
come on.I ran this idea past my father who has spent almost 40 years as
an electrical engineer "masters degree" spending years with multi million dollar equipment that makes our logans look like childs play.his reaction was what? you guys are getting crazy now!

Hi!

I suppose that my explanation wasn't satisfying at all:sad:
Since your father is so experienced in electronics, try to show him my thoughts about this topic, you can find them here:

....why should a different power cord make some difference at all?

I'd like to hear his comments about that.

Ciao

Paolo

P.S.: if I'm not too curious, in which field of electronic was your father involved?

 

[pidigi]

.....although in defense of the manufacturer, let me explain that if they WERE shielded, the shield would have to be connected to the ground pin of the plugs AT EACH END! Otherwise, the manufacturer couldn't get UL Approval on his product.

Very nice explanation, Neil.

Just a question about the UL approval: I see no reason for the "one side only" shileded cable to not match UL standards, as long as the ground connection is made with another wire and NOT with the shield. Am I wrong?

Ciao,

Paolo

 

[nsgarch]

I see no reason for the "one side only" shileded cable to not match UL standards, as long as the ground connection is made with another wire and NOT with the shield. Am I wrong?

Paolo, I don't think you're wrong, but I think the folks at Underwriter's Laboratory would say that audio excellence is a small issue, and that connecting the shield at only one end would create a potential hazard, if for example you accidentally cut a power cord illegally buried in your garden. Or using your sawzall one day, you accidentally cut the cord on your drill press, just before you slipped and cut your hand off with your radial arm saw! God forbid you should get an electric shock after all that and then not be able to sue the manufacturer :devil:

 

[FISH_MAN]

believe what you want

I have to say that I think you all have been very misinformed.
1)I do not agree with the ideas that have been presented.
2)if their is such a big difference why would martin logan sell 5k-25k
speakers and only use $3 cables it just does not make sense.
3)I think that their is a very strong placebo effect going on here
4)I once suggested that a double blind test be performed on speaker
cables and that was quickly destroyed by comments like "To truly appreciate some of these esoteric components you need TIME. There is no substitution for "experience", just like with anything else. So a 2 minute music clip teaches you nothing more about a HiFi device than a 30 mph drive around the block does about the handling of a Ferrari Enzo." if their is a difference
then you can hear it what are you guys afraid of ?
5) this is a very dynamic and fun hobby but unfortunately companies like Monster have been taking advantage of hobbyist for years. and like Monster (we all know what they do)these companies that keep popping up like the ones making these "pc" cables will soon be discredited.
6)have a freind come over lay both cables together and place a small rag on the
back of the speakers this will cover the connection so you can not see wich
one is plugged in. listen for a while have a glass of wine take your time then have him go back again. each time record your thoughts on a piece of paper.do this a good few times for you could get lucky. at the end of the day he will tell you the truth.
I know their are going to be people who will not try this though because they are already shure they can hear the difference.
7) if I am wrong enjoy the benefits of having "better power cords"

 

[twich54]

Ahhhhhhh, time for the semi-annual "Cable debate" !!

FishMan, I understand your concerns, having two sons as engineers they chuckle at this as well.

What I laugh at is the person that spends mega dollars on their "Super Dupper Music Hose" only to plug it into a wall outlet with NO knowledge of what lies between the outlet and the circuit breaker box. Without understanding of dedicated circuit wiring, Buss bar isolation techniques, etc. all your doing is putting a 'purty' piece of wire on your carpet to impress your friends !

Yes the Placebo effect !!!

This post is not to say that aftermarket PC's can't improve the sound, rather to say, if your gonna do it.....do it RIGHT !

 

[pidigi]

I have to say that I think you all have been very misinformed.

yes, it is possible. But please, could you point out where I am misinformed? I would gladly accept a tecnical discussion, I know I have a lot to learn!

1)I do not agree with the ideas that have been presented.

..maybe you are right! But, hey, I've made an effort to try to explain why I think they work, the same did Neil. Please, try to argument your position with technical suppositions, maybe you could convince me!

2)if their is such a big difference why would martin logan sell 5k-25k
speakers and only use $3 cables it just does not make sense.

from my point of view it makes a lot of sense.... but this is not a technical argument, it is more about marketing strategies.

3)I think that their is a very strong placebo effect going on here

well, it dipends. For me I know that this aspect can be quite important in the overall evaluation and I try to do my best not to be deeply biased by this effect.

4)I once suggested that a double blind test be performed on speaker
cables and that was quickly destroyed by comments like "To truly appreciate some of these esoteric components you need TIME. There is no substitution for "experience", just like with anything else. So a 2 minute music clip teaches you nothing more about a HiFi device than a 30 mph drive around the block does about the handling of a Ferrari Enzo." if their is a difference
then you can hear it what are you guys afraid of ?

because I would like to test this component at my conditions (in my system, with Cds that I know well, with more that one CD, etc), not "come here, I put on this CD, listen to it for 3 seconds then I'll change the cable, listen for 3 seconds and tell me wich is which".... Is like if you should choose between two cameras, looking at an out of focus picture, with no contrast and few colours, all in a dark room....

5) this is a very dynamic and fun hobby but unfortunately companies like Monster have been taking advantage of hobbyist for years. and like Monster (we all know what they do)these companies that keep popping up like the ones making these "pc" cables will soon be discredited.

sorry, I don't know the Monster story....

6)have a freind come over lay both cables together and place a small rag on the
back of the speakers this will cover the connection so you can not see wich
one is plugged in. listen for a while have a glass of wine take your time then have him go back again. each time record your thoughts on a piece of paper.do this a good few times for you could get lucky. at the end of the day he will tell you the truth.
I know their are going to be people who will not try this though because they are already shure they can hear the difference.

....I like most of all the part about the glass of wine

Seriously, this is more or less what I did at the beginning. Then, when you see that you can distinguish clearly some details, you don't need every time a double blind test, maybe it will become necessary only when the differences are very small.

In the audio field I'm a DIYer, everything in my system, before I had the Monoliths, was DIY or heavily modifyied. I don't have to lie to myself if I want that the result is satisfying.....

7) if I am wrong enjoy the benefits of having "better power cords"

this is the right conlusion, I agree with you. I'm not the kind of guy that drinks all that advertisment shows you, and quite often I try to persuade my friends about false myths. Nonetheless, if someone is happy because he bought a 3k power cord, hey, he is not doing something wrong, is he? As long as he is not trying to convince me to buy this stuff.... but I don't think that this is the case here, we are amongst friends, we share a common passion and no one is trying to sell power cords! And even if this was the case, I would never buy anything without testing it with my ears...

Ciao!

Paolo

P.S.: I've just finished a new version of my DIY power cord, silver wires in teflon, with triple shield and gold connections, if you want one it is 2k only!!!!

P.S.2: hey, I'm kidding!!!!!

 

[sleepysurf]

Just thought I'd throw out my solution to this power cord debate.

Last year I bought 14g Volex 17604 shielded power cords for all my audio gear, including my Summits. These Volex cords have been highly touted on various audio forums. Although their pricing has doubled over the past year, currently $17 ea at Mouser (perhaps cheaper elsewhere), they are still a great value...(http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=RPC3RGMGIuYJXK%2b9V8k/Wg==)

I can't honestly say I've noticed any significant improvement in fidelity, but they certainly don't hurt.

Frankly, I've found the biggest bang for the buck when tweaking my system, has been adding room acoustic treatments. I strongly recommend doing that before spending mega$$ on cables and power cords. YMMV.

Addendum, they are apparently a lot cheaper at Carlton-Bates, but not sure if they have them in stock...
http://www.cbcdirect.com/direct/Products/ProductListDetail.aspx?pik=847225

 

[robertawillisjr]

I have to say that I think you all have been very misinformed.
1)I do not agree with the ideas that have been presented.
2)if their is such a big difference why would martin logan sell 5k-25k
speakers and only use $3 cables it just does not make sense.
3)I think that their is a very strong placebo effect going on here
4)I once suggested that a double blind test be performed on speaker
cables and that was quickly destroyed by comments like "To truly appreciate some of these esoteric components you need TIME. There is no substitution for "experience", just like with anything else. So a 2 minute music clip teaches you nothing more about a HiFi device than a 30 mph drive around the block does about the handling of a Ferrari Enzo." if their is a difference
then you can hear it what are you guys afraid of ?
5) this is a very dynamic and fun hobby but unfortunately companies like Monster have been taking advantage of hobbyist for years. and like Monster (we all know what they do)these companies that keep popping up like the ones making these "pc" cables will soon be discredited.
6)have a freind come over lay both cables together and place a small rag on the
back of the speakers this will cover the connection so you can not see wich
one is plugged in. listen for a while have a glass of wine take your time then have him go back again. each time record your thoughts on a piece of paper.do this a good few times for you could get lucky. at the end of the day he will tell you the truth.
I know their are going to be people who will not try this though because they are already shure they can hear the difference.
7) if I am wrong enjoy the benefits of having "better power cords"

My suggestion is to go to the Cable Co, or Signal Cable or some other vendor that will let you "try" a decent PC. Listen to it and return if you are not satisfied. Yes there are some astronomically priced PC but there are some reasonable priced units (such as Signal) which are quite nice.

What was convinced me was actually installing better PC's and finding that the difference was better.

Just try it and let us know.

 

[Bernard]

Ahhhhhhh, time for the semi-annual "Cable debate" !!

FishMan, I understand your concerns, having two sons as engineers they chuckle at this as well.

Yes, this does not make sense to a lot of engineers. HOWEVER, some wisdom published in a magazine a long time ago comes to mind: "If what you are hearing does not make sense compared to what you are measuring, then perhaps you are measuring the wrong thing".

The bit-is-bits brigade will tell you that all digital cables sound the same; and they should, as all they are doing is transferring bi-level bits. But they DO sound different!