Placement options – Impacts of location, orientation and treatments

[JonFo]

...

Jonathan, thank you very much for starting this informative thread; along with Rich and Dan (bringing in Ethan), this is what good constructive dialogue is all about !!

Thanks Dave, I'm sure learning a lot as well as I try and put this together.

Good topic for sure.

 

[mcblum]

Small room treatments from RealTrap?

Ethan,

Thanks for joining the discussion.

I have a small room that measures 15 feet front to back with [when at the listening position] a wall on the left 5ft from the listening position that is almost 100% windows and another wall on the right 12ft from the listening position.

My system at work that I listen to all day is comprised to 2 Genelec 1032s fed by a Mackie BigKnob monitor management system, and I honestly think I sounds better than my home system. At work I have 14ft ceilings and one huge room.

What would your advice be for cleaning up the bass and dampening early reflections? Ceilings are 9ft, hardwood floors. Thank you very much for your willingness to contribute.

Matt

 

[JonFo]

...
This is why I'd rather see the rear waves absorbed and removed from the equation completely. But that's me, and others may prefer to keep some of the room tone. One thing that makes it so difficult to speak in absolutes is that all rooms are different. My advice for someone with a 10x12 room is very different than with an open room that's 35x40 or similar.

I think I'll experiment with the diffusers I'm ordering, but I believe I'll order up HF mini's for the front. It's easy enough to add reflective or diffusive elements back into the picture afterwards if deemed beneficial.

The good news is you don't need to nail it on the first try. I've added to the treatment in my living room at least three times in three years, and during that time I also moved things and upgraded speakers twice. I think I finally have it now though!

--Ethan

Absolutely right, it’s amazing how often I revisit something I though I had nailed. But I sure hope to get the acoustic treatments closer to done in this shot.
I just sent you an updated shopping list (25 units ). I have a feeling the holidays will be spent hanging, measuring and positioning treatments

 

[kmanusa]

Sorry for joining this discussion late, it is quite informative and I thank Jon for starting such an interesting thread. I would like to add a little of my own recent experience regarding dipole placement and wall treatments.

I recently acquired a pair of CLS (original). After installing new panels, I began the process of placing them in my 13 x 22 x 9 dedicated room. My first setup can be seen in the photos under System #210. The wall benind the speaker had a combo of heavy drapes over windows with plantation shutters. While I found this setup to be good, there seemed to be a leaness to the lower mids and the upper treble seemed to be a bit rolled off.

This perceived response was confirmed by 1/3 octave pink noise testing with a Phonic PAA2 analyzer. There was a broad trough below 500 Hz of several dB compared with the mid range and the highs above 5 kHz gradually rolled off. Of course there are lots of other variables at play here including the response of the speaker itself. However, I measured similar curves with Quad 988s and Magnepan MG-IIIs in the same location.

So, I decided to try the speakers on the opposite side of the room with the drapes/windows behind my listening position. In this new setup, the wall behind the speakers has two 7' high by 20 inch wide record cabinets directly behind each speaker arranged on either side of French doors. The sound here was much better balanced with the lower mid range trough much reduced and the highs more extended. One third octave pink noise tests tended to confirm this although as noted there are lots of other variables and limitations with pink noise testing.

I tried moving the record cases away from behind the speakers so that I could set up my subs behind the CLS. Big mistake! A mid- to lower mid-range coloration appeared which sounded nasty. Putting the record cases back virtually eliminated this coloration.

I suspect the record cabinets are creating a combo of diffusion and absorption as they contain records, open reel tapes, and box sets-- a lot of uneven surfaces.

All listening is done with a slight amount of toe in. I generally set up the speakers about 5 feet away from the wall behind them and listen 10-12 feet away, although I have varied this. For example, only by putting the CLS very far or very close to the rear wall was I able to reduce the coloration noted when the record cases were removed-- neither of these locations sounded very good or were practical.

I am still experimenting with sub placement and crossovers but I think I now have good spot for the CLS in my room.

 

[Ethan Winer]

Matt,

I have a small room that measures 15 feet front to back with [when at the listening position] a wall on the left 5ft from the listening position that is almost 100% windows and another wall on the right 12ft from the listening position.

Symmetry is very important. Is it possible to rotate your setup 90 degrees, or slide it over, to be centered left and right?

What would your advice be for cleaning up the bass and dampening early reflections? Ceilings are 9ft, hardwood floors. Thank you very much for your willingness to contribute.

My standard advice is always bass traps - the more you have, the flatter and tighter the low end will be. It's that simple. Early reflections are important too. Not just on the side walls, but the ceiling and floor too. If you have wood floors, can you get small throw rugs for those places?

If you can post a photo or two, that will help me be more specific.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

I just sent you an updated shopping list (25 units ). I have a feeling the holidays will be spent hanging, measuring and positioning treatments

I promise we'll take very good care of you! :bowdown:

If you lived closer to me I'd offer to come by in person and help you measure.

--Ethan

 

[DTB300]

If you lived closer to me I'd offer to come by in person and help you measure.

Ethan....JonFo is just a quick little commute down 95 from you

On your way down you can then stop by a bunch of us ML Owner die hards along the coast, trailer being towed behind your car filled with Real Trap goodies to help install and sell us!!!!

 

[mcblum]

Matt,



Symmetry is very important. Is it possible to rotate your setup 90 degrees, or slide it over, to be centered left and right?



My standard advice is always bass traps - the more you have, the flatter and tighter the low end will be. It's that simple. Early reflections are important too. Not just on the side walls, but the ceiling and floor too. If you have wood floors, can you get small throw rugs for those places?

If you can post a photo or two, that will help me be more specific.

--Ethan

I'll get a photo up soon. I tried to talk myself into rotating it but then everything would be in front of my windows. I just don't think I can do it. Do you guys sell bass traps? Where would I put them? I do have an area rug for under the coffee table. Should I put more?

It's so tough sometimes to balance the sonic with the living space.

Thanks again.
Matt

 

[twich54]

On your way down you can then stop by a bunch of us ML Owner die hards along the coast, trailer being towed behind your car filled with Real Trap goodies to help install and sell us!!!!

Exactly Ethan, as Dan says......lets see you could be to my house for lunch, Dan's for Dinner and by the following morning Jonathan and Liz will have breakfast ready for you !!

 

[Ethan Winer]

On your way down you can then stop by a bunch of us ML Owner die hards along the coast, trailer being towed behind your car filled with Real Trap goodies to help install and sell us!!!!

I've actually considered doing "tours" like that, but it's a lot of work to arrange!

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

Do you guys sell bass traps? Where would I put them? I do have an area rug for under the coffee table. Should I put more?

Yes, my company RealTraps sells a full line of acoustic treatment, and we also offer expert advice (free as part of the purchase). There's a ton of advice - plus articles and videos and photos etc - on our site www.realtraps.com. But I'm not here to sell stuff - just to spread the word on the importance of acoustics and treatment.

--Ethan

 

[jk319]

Ethan,

I'd also like to express my thanks for your participation. Ummm, do you ever make it out to California!?!

I will very likely be looking for you in a few months when I hope to add treatments. Cheers.

 

[Ethan Winer]

do you ever make it out to California!?!

Not in a long time, but I help people all over the world literally every day, just with photos and text explanations. I don't have to actually show up at your door to treat your room correctly.

--Ethan

 

[JohnA]

I've been the whole realtraps site, watched all the videos:rocker: , also read several relevant threads on Audioholics etc
Very interesting indeed, I was surpsised to find that the exact room dimensions are not that important for the calculations.
Unfortunately the final prices here in the UK are practically double compared to those in the USA, it is scandalous but that's how it often is.

Trawling around DIY-bass-trap sites it looks like a close approximation could be slabs of rockwool dressed in fabric, or a rigid metal frame (or even wooden). This would have the advantage of being more adaptive to the particular room, perhaps having a shape that could be hidden behind a sofa or a recess in a corner.

Ethan, would that be of any use, or would the rockwool slabs need to be twice the thickness of a mini realtrap for the same effect at low frequencies?

 

[Ethan Winer]

would that be of any use, or would the rockwool slabs need to be twice the thickness of a mini realtrap for the same effect at low frequencies?

It's always "of use" even if it's not the same as what we sell. DIY works, no doubt about it. But you are correct that you'd need more thickness to get similar absorption below 100 Hz. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing!

Also, to be clear, most of our products shipped to Europe are maybe half again higher than the base product cost when you factor in taxes and Customs duty. But even here in the US shipping a pair of MiniTraps across the country is about $50, so the disparity is not really as large as it might seem.

--Ethan

 

[JonFo]

Well, my Santa just dropped by RealTraps and placed an order for a bunch (25 items) of product.
I guess that means Ethan's Santa can take care of him nicely this holiday

Hopefully, the Elves can crank out a few of the HF mini's and normal mini's and get them here by next Friday so I can do a raft of experimentation and measurements before I place them.

The big ‘acoustics re-do’ will likely be completed on a one week vacation I have scheduled for the week of the 21st of January. I’ll re-measure the room as-is, then bare, then with ever increasing amount of RealTraps until I use up all 25 plus the custom DIY side-wall treatments.

This thread is going to get really long

 

[JohnA]

Jon,

I can't think of a more scientific (and independent!) way to measure the effect of minitraps in a room.
I'm probably going to splash out for ETF at some point I just can't resist

As for Santa, mine is more like Bad Santa (what a film) so I don't see a pallet full of minitraps arriving any time soon...

 

[sleepysurf]

For those of us looking for a "ONE BOX" room/frequency response measurement tool, perhaps this new PC-based product will be the answer! Just saw this announcement on Enjoy The Music. It is slated for release in Jan, price?? Full product link here... http://www.xtz.se/produkt.php?allmant=true&mer=true&produkt=41&eng=true

XTZ will soon offer their PC-based Room Analyzer measurement software/tool for audio systems. A combination of software plus the included USB microphone allows for frequency response measurement with RTA (Real Time Analyzer) from 16Hz to 20kHz. Other features include a high resolution room analysis (Room Analyzer) and reverb analysis. You can also use this setup to locate room modes and see where acoustic panels may be of benefit, thereby removing unwanted frequency depression or augmentation as is common in many listening rooms. A spectrogram, 2-D waterfall, shows time, frequency and magnitude. The USB microphone includes stand and helps to avoid lackluster internal soundcards and, instead, opt for direct digital signal input to the computer software for accurate results.

 

[Ethan Winer]

I guess that means Ethan's Santa can take care of him nicely this holiday

:music:

 

[JohnA]

SleepySurf, good find.
I may go for this one
(can't find mention of price on the website though)