newbie back with lots more questions

[eknuds01]

I have a few more questions and I figured it would be easiest to list them all here, instead of a bunch of seperate threads:

I definately want a high quality amp and pre/amp. I guess I'll invest in a decent amp first, and later on I'll get a nice preamp to go with it. I think I can use my existing Yamaha Receiver as the preamp for now and then get rid of it down the line.

IF I wanted to bi amp my Aerius i speakers, I would need a multi channel amp, or a bunch of monoblock amps for that. I don't think I can afford 4 high quality monoblock amps (few can, I'd imagine) so it's probably easiest to go with a good multichannel amp if I wanted to biamp.

Do many of you guys go that road? A few people recommended that I go with the Krell 400xi integrated amp. I would not be able to biamp with this particular Krell, right? Because it has just two channels

To me, it would seem that a multichannel amp offers more flexibilty, correct? If I want to biamp, I can do it.

Or, if biamping is overrated, would a really good two channel amp, or 2 channel integrated amp be the way to go?

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Line conditioners...

You can spend a small fortune on line conditioners. Do you guys advocate using this equipment? I know panamax and monster make some decent line conditioning equipment.

That brings me to speaker cables. This is yet another underrated, but very important topic and it's possible drop a bundle of money on quality cables. Can high end cables also do the same job as the line conditioners mentioned above? That might be a really stupid question and I apologize if it is.

What types of speaker cables do you recommend?

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Subwoofers:

I'll make this quick. I'd love to buy a ML Sub. I am sure they are terrific, but are there any good subs for less than $500, say. How about the subs over HSU research? He's known for producing pretty good subs at a nice price.

 

[Joey_V]

Or, if biamping is overrated, would a really good two channel amp, or 2 channel integrated amp be the way to go?

**********************************************

Line conditioners...

You can spend a small fortune on line conditioners. Do you guys advocate using this equipment? I know panamax and monster make some decent line conditioning equipment.


What types of speaker cables do you recommend?

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Subwoofers:

I'll make this quick. I'd love to buy a ML Sub. I am sure they are terrific, but are there any good subs for less than $500, say. How about the subs over HSU research? He's known for producing pretty good subs at a nice price.

1. I wouldnt really recommend bi-amping as most here do not do biamping. It's probably more prudent to buy a higher quality amp to start off rather than stretch the budget over two not-as-good-amps. I would definitely take a look at the Krell 400ix, especially used.
2. Line Conditioners/Power conditioners are something that I use in my system. It's a rather mass product, the Monster 3500mk2. I use it because I like to know that my system is somewhat protected from random lowlevel surges. I would just say that there are quite a few who believe in voltage regulation and/or ac regeneration. I would like to buy something that regenerates the AC and regulates the voltage someday.... but it's not something I recommend thinking about this early in your trek.
3. Speaker cables - as long as it's shielded and of good quality and decently large 12g or so, you're good in my book.
4. Subs? I would suggest looking at the sealed subwoofers at SVS before looking at any of the ported ones at HSU. That said, there is much to be said about the little ML Dynamo.... that guy is MEAN!

Joey :welcome:

 

[eknuds01]

1. I wouldnt really recommend bi-amping as most here do not do biamping. It's probably more prudent to buy a higher quality amp to start off rather than stretch the budget over two not-as-good-amps. I would definitely take a look at the Krell 400ix, especially used.
2. Line Conditioners/Power conditioners are something that I use in my system. It's a rather mass product, the Monster 3500mk2. I use it because I like to know that my system is somewhat protected from random lowlevel surges. I would just say that there are quite a few who believe in voltage regulation and/or ac regeneration. I would like to buy something that regenerates the AC and regulates the voltage someday.... but it's not something I recommend thinking about this early in your trek.
3. Speaker cables - as long as it's shielded and of good quality and decently large 12g or so, you're good in my book.
4. Subs? I would suggest looking at the sealed subwoofers at SVS before looking at any of the ported ones at HSU. That said, there is much to be said about the little ML Dynamo.... that guy is MEAN!

Joey :welcome:

Joey,

thanks for the input. I assumed all ML subs were expensive, but the Dynamo looks reasonably priced. Have you listened to that sub before? Do you like it? How about the SVS subs? They also look very solid.

thanks again!

Erik

 

[DTB300]

I assumed all ML subs were expensive, but the Dynamo looks reasonably priced. Have you listened to that sub before? Do you like it? How about the SVS subs? They also look very solid.

For me and for music, I would take a ML sub over a SVS. No matter which one you decide one try to buy the best sub you can afford in their lineup.

Dan

 

[eknuds01]

For me and for music, I would take a ML sub over a SVS. No matter which one you decide one try to buy the best sub you can afford in their lineup.

Dan

Dan,

Do you have a ML sub?

 

[Spike]

Do as I say and not as I do?

1. I wouldnt really recommend bi-amping as most here do not do biamping. It's probably more prudent to buy a higher quality amp to start off rather than stretch the budget over two not-as-good-amps.

Uh Joey, why wouldn't you recommend bi-amping? You should clarify your statement a bit since you ARE bi-amping with your Summits! If you mean to start out with a high-quality amplifier, then I'd agree 100%.
As to how many of us bi-amping our system, the number is increasing with every sale of Vantages and Summits!

Ekdnus01, the subject of bi-amping a polarized one like tubes vs solid-state amplifiers. I just happened to be in the bi-amping camp, there are countless others who will tell you otherwise. You can do a search here using the "bi-amp" as the keyword and read more for yourself. And then, you should audition for yourself. Be warned that you'll need to be more creative to figure out how to audition to a bi-amp'ed system. Most shops are not set up to accomodate for this type of system.

Spike

 

[Craig]

Do many of you guys go that road? A few people recommended that I go with the Krell 400xi integrated amp. I would not be able to biamp with this particular Krell, right? Because it has just two channels

You can biamp with a Krell 400xi. You simply use the preamp output going into another amp. I previuosly owned its predecessor the Krell 300li and biamped that with a Cary Rocket 88 tube amp to power a pair of Odysseys. The combination sounded very nice. It was just a loaner amp or I would have that setup longer than the week I had it for.

But you could get by with the Krell for a long while. It will power the Aerius very well.

 

[Joey_V]

Uh Joey, why wouldn't you recommend bi-amping? You should clarify your statement a bit since you ARE bi-amping with your Summits! If you mean to start out with a high-quality amplifier, then I'd agree 100%.
As to how many of us bi-amping our system, the number is increasing with every sale of Vantages and Summits!

Spike

Spike,
You got me there.... I never thought of that!

Regardless, I would still recommend going with a great amp rather than two good amps for biamping purposes.

Just my 2 cents though.

 

[Joey_V]

You can biamp with a Krell 400xi. You simply use the preamp output going into another amp. I previuosly owned its predecessor the Krell 300li and biamped that with a Cary Rocket 88 tube amp to power a pair of Odysseys. The combination sounded very nice. It was just a loaner amp or I would have that setup longer than the week I had it for.

Craig,
That's a nifty trick!

 

[roberto]

Craig,
That's a nifty trick!

Hola...I have a question regarding this ...how do you adjust the sensitivity if both amps are different in this respect? Does one of the amps have input volume control? Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[twich54]

Uh Joey, why wouldn't you recommend bi-amping? You should clarify your statement a bit since you ARE bi-amping with your Summits! Spike

Since this fella appears to be "new", I too wouldn't recomend bi-amping to start, besides the "passive" bi-amping that is going on with our Summitt's and Vantage's is much less involved then "active" bi-amping that I believe the question was aimed.

Spike, It's a fair assumption that those on the site that are biamping have a few more years under their belt with regard to amplification, set-up,etc. For those that "actively" bi-amp, they must posses decent knowledge of their speaker cross-over design / application as well as balancing gain differentils between amps.

 

[Spike]

...besides the "passive" bi-amping that is going on with our Summitt's and Vantage's is much less involved then "active" bi-amping that I believe the question was aimed.

So, I gotta ask since there may be a few lurking "Loganeers" contemplating this exact question: What's then is the sonic difference between "passively" bi-amping of the Vista vs the Vantage (assuming of course that the crossover point remains the same to make the comparison valid)? Also, assuming that I have a capable solid-state amp along the line of Bryston or Krell to manhandle the woofer of the Vista.

It's a fair assumption that those on the site that are biamping have a few more years under their belt with regard to amplification, set-up,etc. For those that "actively" bi-amp, they must posses decent knowledge of their speaker cross-over design / application as well as balancing gain differentils between amps.

And then there's...Joey who went from "normal" to bi-amping with Summits in the scant period of 4-months :rocker:
Absolutely agree on the question of "actively" bi-amping the Logans since there is the step-up transformer involved for the 'stat panel. Actively bi-amping in this case is not just a "simple" matter of disconnecting the crossover as is the case with dynamic cone speakers. For the Logans, it requires in-depth knowledge on par with another ML member here, JonFo! Not only the knowledge is required, but also the willingness to pick up the soldering iron and get to work

Spike

 

[twich54]

So, I gotta ask since there may be a few lurking "Loganeers" contemplating this exact question: What's then is the sonic difference between "passively" bi-amping of the Vista vs the Vantage (assuming of course that the crossover point remains the same to make the comparison valid)? Also, assuming that I have a capable solid-state amp along the line of Bryston or Krell to manhandle the woofer of the Vista.


And then there's...Joey who went from "normal" to bi-amping with Summits in the scant period of 4-months :rocker:
Absolutely agree on the question of "actively" bi-amping the Logans since there is the step-up transformer involved for the 'stat panel. Actively bi-amping in this case is not just a "simple" matter of disconnecting the crossover as is the case with dynamic cone speakers. For the Logans, it requires in-depth knowledge on par with another ML member here, JonFo! Not only the knowledge is required, but also the willingness to pick up the soldering iron and get to work

Spike

Spike, I was not aware of Joey 'bi-amping' his Summitt's ???? I thought he had only the Plinius SA-102 suppling the full bandwidth of signal to them ???

Anyways, lets clear the air on bi-amping; first off 'Passive' bi-amping utlizes two amps whereby one controls the bass freg and the other mids and treble but freq crossovers are still controlled by the speakers designed internal crossover componets (capacitors, resistors and inductors) thus the term 'passive'.

On the other hand 'Active' bi-amping utilizes an electronic (external) crossover between pre-amp and amps. Therefore each power amp only recieves the bandwidth portion it will be responsible to amplify. It is this reason why when tubes and SS are combined in a bi-amp configuration that an 'actively' bi-amped set-up makes the most sense. Again proper gain matching and control enters in as well.

As far as bi-amping a set of Vista's vs a dynamically driven pair of speakers with tweeter, mid and bass drivers the M/L's present in many ways LESS of a challenge since there is only one crossover point to deal with, not two !

 

[Spike]

Spike, I was not aware of Joey 'bi-amping' his Summitt's ???? I thought he had only the Plinius SA-102 suppling the full bandwidth of signal to them ???

By definition, the Summits with their internal bass amplifiers handling the wooders, means passive bi-amping since the owner's amplifier is only responsible to drive the panels. So, specifically for the Summits, Joey is using his Plinius for the panels, in addition to TWO internal 200-watt amplifiers driving the woofers for a total of 3 amplifiers per Summit!

Anyways, lets clear the air on bi-amping; first off 'Passive' bi-amping utlizes two amps whereby one controls the bass freg and the other mids and treble but freq crossovers are still controlled by the speakers designed internal crossover componets (capacitors, resistors and inductors) thus the term 'passive'.

On the other hand 'Active' bi-amping utilizes an electronic (external) crossover between pre-amp and amps. Therefore each power amp only recieves the bandwidth portion it will be responsible to amplify. It is this reason why when tubes and SS are combined in a bi-amp configuration that an 'actively' bi-amped set-up makes the most sense. Again proper gain matching and control enters in as well.

I understand the passive vs active differences. The real benefit to active bi-amping is to have the cross-over components deal with low-level signal instead of the high-level signal coming out from the amplifiers. But to reap this benefit, the speaker's crossover circuitry must be removed, so that the speaker is directly driven by the amplifier. But in the ML case, the amplifier is NOT connected directly to the radiating surface (the panels) the way a dynamic cone is hooked up. There is the step-up transformer translating the low-voltage signal coming out from the amplifier to high-voltage signal to drive the panels. As Jim Powers has confirmed in the past, the cross-over circuitry is part of (and optimized for) this step-up transformer and the owner is discouraged from bypassing this cross-over module. That is, unless one possess the technical know-how of JonFo to rewire the transformer, this cross-over circuitry is always in the chain. That makes it a moot point to go to active bi-amping configuration for the Logans.

As far as bi-amping a set of Vista's vs a dynamically driven pair of speakers with tweeter, mid and bass drivers the M/L's present in many ways LESS of a challenge since there is only one crossover point to deal with, not two !

My original question was to compare the bi-amped Vista vs the "single-amped" Vantage. To clarify my question further, I will use a Plinius to drive the panel and a Krell to drive the bass of the Vista. But I only use the Plinius to drive the panel of the Vantage since the bass of the Vantage is driven by its own internal 200-watt amplifier. Now, let's level the playing field by assuming that the Vista and Vantage has the exact same crossover circuitry and frequency. Given this specific case, is there any real advantage between the 2 speaker models? I'm not talking about comparing ML with dynamic cone speakers.

Spike

 

[twich54]

My original question was to compare the bi-amped Vista vs the "single-amped" Vantage. To clarify my question further, I will use a Plinius to drive the panel and a Krell to drive the bass of the Vista. But I only use the Plinius to drive the panel of the Vantage since the bass of the Vantage is driven by its own internal 200-watt amplifier. Now, let's level the playing field by assuming that the Vista and Vantage has the exact same crossover circuitry and frequency. Given this specific case, is there any real advantage between the 2 speaker models? I'm not talking about comparing ML with dynamic cone speakers.Spike

Spike, Good question, given the 'playing field' set forth I would assume it would come down to sonic differnences between the Krell amp used on the Vista's and the built in bass amp on the Vantage's.

 

[eknuds01]

Since this fella appears to be "new", I too wouldn't recomend bi-amping to start, besides the "passive" bi-amping that is going on with our Summitt's and Vantage's is much less involved then "active" bi-amping that I believe the question was aimed.

Spike, It's a fair assumption that those on the site that are biamping have a few more years under their belt with regard to amplification, set-up,etc. For those that "actively" bi-amp, they must posses decent knowledge of their speaker cross-over design / application as well as balancing gain differentils between amps.

Yes and this goes to the heart of the matter. It seems that active bi-amping has many variables. Another question: can you passively bi-amp with aerius i?

 

[ralflar]

> Another question: can you passively bi-amp with aerius i?
Yes. The manual that came with your speakers if you bought them new explains how to do this.

Anyway, someone either here or on another forum says in his signature "Don't bi-amp. Buy amp!" This obviously refers to passive bi-amping, and sums up my own experience re. bi-amped multi channel receiver vs decent two channel amps, with a pair of Aeon-i.

 

[Pcar928fan]

> Another question: can you passively bi-amp with aerius i?
Yes. The manual that came with your speakers if you bought them new explains how to do this.

Anyway, someone either here or on another forum says in his signature "Don't bi-amp. Buy amp!" This obviously refers to passive bi-amping, and sums up my own experience re. bi-amped multi channel receiver vs decent two channel amps, with a pair of Aeon-i.

Actually only the Aerius with the Bi-wire capability. Some of the "i" models that I have seen and I know the Pre-i models either didn't have or optionally had the dual binding posts for Bi-amping/wiring, some did not have this at all.

 

[Spike]

Yes and this goes to the heart of the matter. It seems that active bi-amping has many variables. Another question: can you passively bi-amp with aerius i?

Sure you can. Assuming that you're talking about the Aerius i, which has separate binding posts for the panels and another set for the bass. The item to keep in mind is how to balance the gain levels between the two amplifiers to make them work seamlessly. Here are a few links on this bi-amping subjects...

1. Biamp Top/Bottom Balance
2. Tube top and solid bottom
3. Recommended ways to bi-amp Aerius-i
4. Glass, at last!

I put the labels of the threads to the links so that you have an easier time to locate the threads. Don't read too much into the labels of bi-amping using tubes. Just focus on the subject of balancing the gain between amps.

Spike

 

[Pcar928fan]

Sure you can. Assuming that you're talking about the Aerius i, which has separate binding posts for the panels and another set for the bass.

Spike,

I have seen Aerius i speakers that DID NOT have the dual binding posts...