need help in picking a sub fast enough for my cls2z

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htrattner

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hi everyone ,happy holidays to all ,first let me say i love my cls2z,and my complete Jolida tube system (mono block 200wtt/ch jd3000a,my pre amp tube jolida music envoy,and my source a jolida tube /redbook cd player,::: now my ? I was thinking about a sub to bring in some deeper bass (but not too deep )my preamp has inputs and I have never really explored this avenue,help plz help me !!! I just love good sound ,im not a smart guy when it comes to the techincalaspects of true hi-fi,just a dum fireman that loves music that should've never set-foot in northridge audio in 1980 and heard my first accustat model3 w/ there tnt amp ,from that point on I was hooked ,crap !!! plz help me with some info ,thanks .....Fattner,Ca:music:
 
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Hola. Because the CLSs are one of the fastest speakers on Earth, you need a super fast sub: Depth I. I had two of them when I had my CLSIIz some time ago. Believe me, these subs are fast!. Three 8" woofers and a vibration free cabinet is something special. They go very deep too. Try to listen to them. Happy listening. Trust your ears.
 
Best, most all-inclusive post on sub integration - in this case in the context of planar/sub - I've read in maybe forever:

Mating a subwoofer to a quality, high resolution planar system can be a daunting task. One needs to be prudent in every step taken in potential candidates. Removing any pre-conceived bias, and any mythology toward loudspeakers in general, and subwoofers specifically, is absolutely necessary if one is to pursue the technically superior approach.

The elephant in the room is the subwoofer mythology surrounding subwoofers is "speed". Fast bass, quick bass, etc. We see these terms used frequently. There's an entirely inappropriate amount of emphasis on subwoofer speed, and it's connection to quality. When considering a woofer stroking back and forth, out-putting a 40hz tone, what impacts a driver's speed? Increasing the volume, that increases speed. It has to move more air, so it's excursion is greater, yet it must maintain it's frequency. That makes it faster. I'm attempting to illustrate why driver speed, is often inappropriately linked to quality.

Another myth is driver size, somehow being tied to quality, in that smaller, faster drivers possess a speed advantage. This is absurd. Subwoofing, no matter how one looks at it, is all about moving air in a low distortion manner. When comparing a high quality 12" LF driver, to a high quality 18" driver, the 12 must work significantly harder to output a given SPL, and frequency than the 18. The larger 18 has over twice the cone area of the 12, thus it's stroke is half of what the 12 must produce at any given frequency and SPL level. The 12, working twice as hard, will encounter it's non-linearities of cone over-shoot (the cone has to move twice the speed), the voice coil will encounter the limits of linearity of the magnetic circuit, much earlier to the similarly designed 18. There's simply too much un-due emphasis on small quick drivers, when individuals consider nice tight bass.

Oftentimes enthusiasts mistakingly consider the moving mass as a key component to how quickly a subwoofer driver can accelerate, decelerate, and quickly change position. This concept, of mass being a determinate factor of a driver's capability, is one of the most deeply rooted misconceptions, because on the face it makes so much sense, ...however wrong it may be. The driver's transient response, all comes down to how much current can be delivered by the amplifier, and subsequently properly used by the driver. Actually, as Dan Wiggins so adeptly illustrated in his work, a drivers inductance, not mass, determines it's ability to quickly start and stop.


So, what does contribute to a subwoofer either mating properly to a high resolution main, or not? A technically superior approach, in a well designed product, that's properly integrated to the remainder of the system, and ideally optimized to the acoustic interaction of the room. Simple as that

Seriously, ones subjective interpretation of a subwoofer's "tightness", or speed, is linked to sighted bias. The power of our preconceived notions are enormously significant. Unsighted or blind tests have illustrated that one must go with the science, and big drivers and their associated mass has absolutely no impact on a drivers transient response.

1.) Technically superior approach
2.) Well designed/built product
3.) Properly integrated
4.) Ideally optimized acoustically



If I were mating a subwoofer to a planar based system, and absolute seamless integration between the two elements was key, I too would employ a sealed design. When contemplating proper sealed designs, you've got to entirely eliminate the cabinet as a component to the sound. There are many such methods for controlling a cabinets contribution, one such approach is the dual opposed approach. This design cancels the mechanical forces the drivers would otherwise impart to the enclosure. So when combining a nice, robustly build enclosure, with a dual opposed design approach, all potential vibrations, resonances, etc, are entirely canceled. Additionally, the added benefit is the shared work-load between the two drive elements. When comparing to a single like sized driver, the overall capability is doubled. Or at any given SPL level, the excursion of each driver is halved. Either way you look at it, it's a technically superior approach.

Obviously, there are several outstanding, single driver subs out there. The dual opposed approach does not reign supreme in every case. Although it's a technically superior way to go about things, a very good driver in an entirely inert sealed enclosure, can achieve similar results. The added displacement of the dual opposed driver aids in it's superiority. It's all about moving air, double the cones, you half the workload. Also, when the drivers only need to move a small amount, their apparent speed is increased.

There are several other aspects of the sealed alignment that place it in the technically superior category, one being the native roll-off of the sealed design is 12db octave. This matches the a room's low frequency transfer function and Room Gain (PVG) characteristics. That's an entire different topic, suffice it to say, the sealed alignment properly executed mates up ideally with the room's acoustic.

The next aspect is a thoroughly well designed and built product. One such example I've heard is Seaton's Submersive. Few commercial subwoofers have the lower octave extension characteristics that the Submersive has. Way too often design compromises must limit amplifier power by signal shaping/limiting, to prevent nasty non-linear behavior from a product in the lowest octaves of operation. In the case of the Submersive, the designer fully realizes the importance of the realistic impact that accompany extension into the single digits. I can only think of one other designer, Nathan Funk, that has a subwoofer product in production that fully takes advantage of extension into the infra sound range. It's an added level of realism, in my experience whether one places importance on it typically is determined by if they've been exposed to it.

Now, the real key to mating a superb subwoofer to a high rez planar main is proper integration, and acoustical optimization. This is where one can really affect the apparent speed of the sub. Proper blending at the crossover, proper phase integration, so one achieves a ideally coherent wavefront emanating into the listening space,...hugely important. It's not easy achieving ideal response at the crossover, but working and working to get it right is very important.

Some measure of equalization in both the frequency and time domain is absolutely necessary to achieve a nice realistic and fully impactful product. Without EQ in the time domain, bass notes linger and sustain, masking transient detail. Every single room is different, but bass traps are vital for good delineation of bass detail and transients.

Good bass, properly blended with planar mains (or any other high quality mains) shouldn't mask any of the rest of the material. It shouldn't sound like an effect, it should be entirely whole. Percussive sounds should be realistic, not like a separate and distinct thud. Transients should hit powerful, tight and hard, but musical when appropriate. The entire system, including the bass, should be high rez and transparent. How do you get transparency? Ideal blending of the mains to the sub. For much bass instrument material, the upper harmonics are more prominent and louder than the fundamental. So working toward an ideal blend between sub and mains is one primary aspect of what really impacts apparent speed.

Production units, I'd examine the Seaton Submersive, Nathan Funk's LMS5400 based designs. Proper blending between sub and mains is discussed daily in threads all over the web,...why? It essential to a realistic experience.

Sorry for the verbose contribution, too much coffee

Good luck, and whichever route you choose, exert the effort to optimize what you buy. The vast majority of systems sit in homes under utilized due to poor optimization.

I'd strongly suggest REW, or OmniMic. I've had OMniMic for a year now, and it's severd me well,...and it couldn't be easier. Literally minutes from opening it up, you're measuring. Yes, i began with the Rat Shack digital. You can check out Rives test disc, and chart your room with the Rat shack meter. That's somewhat crude when compared with what's out there. For a newbie to measurment gear, I'd suggest OmniMic.


Thanks, and again good luck
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=21260749#post21260749
 
I have the CLSiiA, paired with REL T2, one for each ch. Active/passive woofwer sealed design. Sound like they are happy together. Bass is tight and real.
 
Best, most all-inclusive post on sub integration - in this case in the context of planar/sub - I've read in maybe forever:

For sure that's a nice post. He mentions the Dayton Audio OmniMic at the end of the post. Check out the review of the OmniMic beginning on page 57 of the November issue of Stereophile. Great product, great price. I use it and strongly recommend it.

Gary
 
For sure that's a nice post. He mentions the Dayton Audio OmniMic at the end of the post. Check out the review of the OmniMic beginning on page 57 of the November issue of Stereophile. Great product, great price. I use it and strongly recommend it.

Gary
Gary, I've not seen the review yet, but I'm not surprised. I've owned the Omnimic for several months and it's an easy to use, incredibly helpful tool.

Have you updated to the 11/11/11 software? Some new features, including ETC, have been implemented. If you inhabit AVS, there's an owner thread where Bill Waslo pops in to answer questions and such.

/ken
 
my room is small 13x13 thx for your reply
Harry, what sort of budget do you have? Are you open to adding bass traps, or are these verboten because of WAF or other factors?
 
I use 2 Depth i's which are quite fast and fit the bill. In your room, I would only use 1. I had the best success with my single previous Depth right in the center between my Odyssey's. You may want to try that position.You could save money by buying a previous generation Depth off of audiogon.

Cheers, Greg
 
Have you updated to the 11/11/11 software? Some new features, including ETC, have been implemented. If you inhabit AVS, there's an owner thread where Bill Waslo pops in to answer questions and such.

/ken

I do occasionally inhabit AVS as GaryArthur but was not aware of the OmniMic thread so I'll check it out and will also update my software.
Thanks
 
I too would add that the Depth or the Depth 1 would be a good choice. I use a Depth with my CLSiiz and have plenty of base. I was thinking of having another but then there are times when there is almost too much. So it is a matter of taste and the type of music. Most of important is the amount you want to spend on the sub will help push you in the direction you can go.

Jeff
 
I have both a Depth i and an ACI Saturn with OAUDIO amp...the ACI is better...deeper and just as fast.. but probably going to sell both and get a Descent.
 
From what I've read the Depth i (or two) is a little better suited for a music-focused system and the Descent i (or two) is a little better suited for home theater-focused system. Obviously this is also dependent on room size, which speakers you're using, etc, but that seems to be the general consensus I've seen from reading through all the old posts on the subject. I have a Descent i on order since my system is used about 70% HT/Video Games and 30% music, ordered it a month or so ago so with any luck I'll get it soon and be able to provide some real world feedback.
 
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thanks to all for responding,,,I love whati have (system) but would love alittle more bass (real tight bass ) since my room is small I thinkone bass ,price range 500.00, even used I dnt care ,so what would be the best for the money and easy to set up also....my music ,frankie ,old motown and r&b ,some classical ,and my favorite john willams(superman) thanks again for this great web site I love it .......Harry
 
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