Need assistance with cables for my setup

[snyderkv]

MLO,

I'm purchasing my first HT system and have no idea what cables to buy and where they go. So I'm going to give a list of equipment that are on purchase or have been purchased already so it would help if anyone can recommend cables for this particular setup shown below.

NAD M25
NAD M15HD
NAD M56
ML Ethos
Epsn PJ 120" (wireless HDMI)

That's actually it, no line conditioners or fancy stuff. The Epson PJ has wireless HDMI built in so I can take advantage of that to reduce cables to the PJ and DVD player I think.

I don't need $1000/ft cable but high enough quality for a non audiophile to spot the difference would be great.

The equipment will be stacked on top of eachother and most likely between the Ethos (8-10' apart) underneath a 120" PJ screen. The PJ will be located behind the viewer ~15" from the front wall.

I wouldn't mind having the equipment stacked off to the side of the room either depending on recomendations.

Thanks again for the assistance

 

[JonFo]

Hi, Since I don't subscribe to any cable manufacture voodoo, and I do use a LOT of cables in my very complex rig, I'll share my opinion on this fun topic:

Just get decent, good quality cable suited to the job. No need to overpay for stuff that you'll never hear a difference on. Put that money into room treatments first. THAT you WILL notice

My best advice is head on over to BlueJeans cable, they are a no-nonsense quality vendor whose products perform. I use their speaker cable exclusively (Belden 10ga 5000UTP), and have many of their other interconnects.

Not a single cable in my system is 'high-end', yet the system has an absolutely silent background. Zero noise or hiss, and the system is ultra-transparent. As you're aware, MLs are quite revealing of what's upstream.

 

[Hi Fi Rōnin]

I have used JPS Labs cables for 10 years with different panels and different Esls and they deliver every time. They have very well priced options.

 

[snyderkv]

Thanks a bunch I'll check out that link and figure out what I need. I guess the radio shack days of speaker cable are over.

 

[FoxMulder]

There are a few of us that use the Canare 4S11 cable. I run my Sanders ESL amp to my Martin Logan CLSIIA's with this cable and couldn't be happier. It's pretty cheap too.

http://store.haveinc.com/p-49380-canare-4s11-starquad-speaker-cable-14-awg-cut.aspx

 

[Gordon Gray]

There are many threads regarding this issue. Try the "search" function and get comfortable.

Best option. Try in your system before you buy. The only opinion that matters is yours.

And yes, many cables need some break-in before sounding their best. Caveat emptor.

GG

 

[Speedskater]

MLO,

***********

I don't need $1000/ft cable but high enough quality for a non audiophile to spot the difference would be great.

************

Thanks again for the assistance

Well spotting differences is easy! It's the hearing part that's difficult (no peeking). Most people have difficulty hearing any difference most of the time. The few times differences are truly heard, it's not for the reasons listed in the cable ads.

 

[snyderkv]

There are many threads regarding this issue. Try the "search" function and get comfortable.

Best option. Try in your system before you buy. The only opinion that matters is yours.

And yes, many cables need some break-in before sounding their best. Caveat emptor.

GG

I'm not going to audition speaker wire haha. That just sounds rediculous. I wonder how much difference is just in ones head.

During a hearing test, results showed that I would click the button when no tone was present.

My question isn't really searchable because I didn't ask what the "BEST" cable is. I simply asked what cables do I need. I can barely tell the difference between HDMI and Firewire. (exagerating a little)

 

[snyderkv]

Well spotting differences is easy! It's the hearing part that's difficult (no peeking). Most people have difficulty hearing any difference most of the time. The few times differences are truly heard, it's not for the reasons listed in the cable ads.

Agreed, I think it's rediculous to audition cables but I'm a newb so what do I know.

I'm actually more concerned about the Ohm rating on cables. I'm buying a NAD M25 and NAD support said to make sure you don't add resistance with bad cables. So as long as I get something with no resistance, then I could care less about brand or price. I just don't want my amp or speaker to blow up.

 

[Speedskater]

All wires and cables have a small amount of resistance. Bad (by design or defective) cables or connectors have a large amount of resistance. You can buy bad cables in the big-box stores, they have labels that make them look good.

In all cases the longer the cable or the higher the AWG number, the greater the cable total resistance.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Snyder,

Excuse the hell out of me.

Yes, you are a newb and I offered input that many astute listeners would agree with. You may learn, if you continue in this hobby, that everything matters.

You need to be respectful and recognize your ignorance if you wish to participate in a forum and gain knowledge from other peoples experiences.

You asked the question, not me.

GG

PS: Anti Cable, Belden, DH Labs, Canare, JPS, Signal Cable, etc. are all reasonably priced options. That's why I suggested you use the search function and also read reviews available on the web, to make the best informed decision. There's also "The Cable Company", that allows one to listen to a wide variety of cables, in many price points, before spending your hard earned dollars.

 

[gordonmenninger]

I agree with Gordon. Use the search function - cables have been discussed ad nauseum on here so put a little effort into it. Cables do matter but how much they matter is for your ear and pocketbook to decide. Don't get too caught up on the specs (ohms etc.). Also with your NAD stuff I would. Of get too crazy as you would probably get more sonic improvement by upgrading your amps, preamps and source when you can swing it. Martin Logan's need plenty of quality watts to drive them. Also as JonFo said room treatments can offer you the biggest improvement at this point as ML's are pretty finicky to set up properly. Do a search in the room treatments forum here..
When I got my first ML's, I pretty much read all the posts on here that I could and then asked questions. Just sayin'.

 

[snyderkv]

I agree with Gordon. Use the search function - cables have been discussed ad nauseum on here so put a little effort into it. Cables do matter but how much they matter is for your ear and pocketbook to decide. Don't get too caught up on the specs (ohms etc.). Also with your NAD stuff I would. Of get too crazy as you would probably get more sonic improvement by upgrading your amps, preamps and source when you can swing it. Martin Logan's need plenty of quality watts to drive them. Also as JonFo said room treatments can offer you the biggest improvement at this point as ML's are pretty finicky to set up properly. Do a search in the room treatments forum here..
When I got my first ML's, I pretty much read all the posts on here that I could and then asked questions. Just sayin'.

I believe the original question was what cables do I need, not which cables are the best but it has derailed into that for some reason. Basically, when I look on the web, I see a million different types of cables and not sure which ones I actually need.

I don't have the equipment yet but I did want to buy the cables ahead of time.

I'll just wait until I get the equipment and then walk into a shop.

 

[roberto]

Hola. This hobby, it is a matter of how do we like the sound, or better say, how the musician(s) perform(s) for us in our own place. If you listen carefully, you will notice which cables perform better with your system. Just think of this: right out of your cd player, dvd, processor, what ever you are using, you have an audio signal, full of a very complex wave forms, that you have to reproduce and convert that electronic signal into sound. The capacitance, the inductance and the resistance of the cable affects this complex signal, and this is the reason why out there are so many different cables and types of connectors. Believe it: all them affects this complex signal. Some will act as an equalizer. As we know, copper is good for bass, and silver is great for highs. A combination will add both benefits, or just, choose the one that you liked. If you are happy with a twisted zip lamp cord, then it is your choice and liking. I read from a very interesting and dedicated person this:..."AXIOM #1: Because of the tunneling effect and piezoelectric and triboelectric properties, wire is microphonic. As a result, energy from a mechanical resonance affects the flow of electrical energy through a conductor in such a way as to audibly emphasize the notes and overtones that coincide with the frequency of that resonance. If we change the way a conductor (wire or PC traces) vibrates and/or resonates, we change the way it sounds. Thus, in a sense, wire can be thought of as a “mechanical” tone control"..."All resonances affect the tonality of the sound of your audio system, whether they are electrical or mechanical...or a combination of the two. The electrical properties that cause wire and PC board traces to become mechanical tone controls are today just coming into focus. All materials have mechanical resonances; change the size, shape, and composition of a part, and its mechanical resonances will change. Even when the circuit and parts stay the same, a prototype that is MADE differently from a production model will SOUND different. (This statement comes as the result of personal experience and from conversations with other manufacturers.) Why? Because materials such as the chassis and mounting hardware will differ, the mechanical resonances will differ, and these resonances will electrically highlight different parts of the signal’s sonic spectrum, so the sound coming from your speakers will have to differ also."..."All audio equipment can be tuned. Because it can be tuned, it then has properties like those of a musical instrument, and SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT. All musical instruments have a characteristic tone...so do all audio system components This is a major reason—and possibly the fundamental reason—why today’s conventional engineering practices alone are doomed to perpetuate the design and production of products that are a “Dr. Jekyll” in one audio system, and a “Mr. Hyde” in another. The significance of an audio component’s resonances, to both consumer and designer alike, is a hidden aspect that confounds and confuses those seeking to build a truly enjoyable system. It “confounds and confuses” because without an adequate understanding of how resonance affects a product’s “sound,” designers cannot build nor can consumers buy a component that sounds accurate AND musical in any and all systems."... this is a hobby with a never end. Each day are new topology in circuits design and better electronic components. Your Martin Logan speaker are a very delicate electronic instruments, that with the proper care, will shine and will give to you what we are seeking!, that is: to have in our own place, all those great musician(s) performing for you...right there. Happy listening!

 

[snyderkv]

Hola. This hobby, it is a matter of how do we like the sound, or better say, how the musician(s) perform(s) for us in our own place. If you listen carefully, you will notice which cables perform better with your system. Just think of this: right out of your cd player, dvd, processor, what ever you are using, you have an audio signal, full of a very complex wave forms, that you have to reproduce and convert that electronic signal into sound. The capacitance, the inductance and the resistance of the cable affects this complex signal, and this is the reason why out there are so many different cables and types of connectors. Believe it: all them affects this complex signal. Some will act as an equalizer. As we know, copper is good for bass, and silver is great for highs. A combination will add both benefits, or just, choose the one that you liked. If you are happy with a twisted zip lamp cord, then it is your choice and liking. I read from a very interesting and dedicated person this:..."AXIOM #1: Because of the tunneling effect and piezoelectric and triboelectric properties, wire is microphonic. As a result, energy from a mechanical resonance affects the flow of electrical energy through a conductor in such a way as to audibly emphasize the notes and overtones that coincide with the frequency of that resonance. If we change the way a conductor (wire or PC traces) vibrates and/or resonates, we change the way it sounds. Thus, in a sense, wire can be thought of as a “mechanical” tone control"..."All resonances affect the tonality of the sound of your audio system, whether they are electrical or mechanical...or a combination of the two. The electrical properties that cause wire and PC board traces to become mechanical tone controls are today just coming into focus. All materials have mechanical resonances; change the size, shape, and composition of a part, and its mechanical resonances will change. Even when the circuit and parts stay the same, a prototype that is MADE differently from a production model will SOUND different. (This statement comes as the result of personal experience and from conversations with other manufacturers.) Why? Because materials such as the chassis and mounting hardware will differ, the mechanical resonances will differ, and these resonances will electrically highlight different parts of the signal’s sonic spectrum, so the sound coming from your speakers will have to differ also."..."All audio equipment can be tuned. Because it can be tuned, it then has properties like those of a musical instrument, and SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT. All musical instruments have a characteristic tone...so do all audio system components This is a major reason—and possibly the fundamental reason—why today’s conventional engineering practices alone are doomed to perpetuate the design and production of products that are a “Dr. Jekyll” in one audio system, and a “Mr. Hyde” in another. The significance of an audio component’s resonances, to both consumer and designer alike, is a hidden aspect that confounds and confuses those seeking to build a truly enjoyable system. It “confounds and confuses” because without an adequate understanding of how resonance affects a product’s “sound,” designers cannot build nor can consumers buy a component that sounds accurate AND musical in any and all systems."... this is a hobby with a never end. Each day are new topology in circuits design and better electronic components. Your Martin Logan speaker are a very delicate electronic instruments, that with the proper care, will shine and will give to you what we are seeking!, that is: to have in our own place, all those great musician(s) performing for you...right there. Happy listening!

Thanks Rob that was very informative.

 

[Speedskater]

Hola. This hobby, it is a matter of how do we like the sound, or better say, how the musician(s) perform(s) for us in our own place. If you listen carefully, you will notice which cables perform better with your system. Just think of this: right out of your cd player, dvd, processor, what ever you are using, you have an audio signal, full of a very complex wave forms, that you have to reproduce and convert that electronic signal into sound. The capacitance, the inductance and the resistance of the cable affects this complex signal, and this is the reason why out there are so many different cables and types of connectors. Believe it: all them affects this complex signal. Some will act as an equalizer. As we know, copper is good for bass, and silver is great for highs. A combination will add both benefits, or just, choose the one that you liked. If you are happy with a twisted zip lamp cord, then it is your choice and liking. I read from a very interesting and dedicated person this:..."AXIOM #1: Because of the tunneling effect and piezoelectric and triboelectric properties, wire is microphonic. As a result, energy from a mechanical resonance affects the flow of electrical energy through a conductor in such a way as to audibly emphasize the notes and overtones that coincide with the frequency of that resonance. If we change the way a conductor (wire or PC traces) vibrates and/or resonates, we change the way it sounds. Thus, in a sense, wire can be thought of as a “mechanical” tone control"..."All resonances affect the tonality of the sound of your audio system, whether they are electrical or mechanical...or a combination of the two. The electrical properties that cause wire and PC board traces to become mechanical tone controls are today just coming into focus. All materials have mechanical resonances; change the size, shape, and composition of a part, and its mechanical resonances will change. Even when the circuit and parts stay the same, a prototype that is MADE differently from a production model will SOUND different. (This statement comes as the result of personal experience and from conversations with other manufacturers.) Why? Because materials such as the chassis and mounting hardware will differ, the mechanical resonances will differ, and these resonances will electrically highlight different parts of the signal’s sonic spectrum, so the sound coming from your speakers will have to differ also."..."All audio equipment can be tuned. Because it can be tuned, it then has properties like those of a musical instrument, and SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT. All musical instruments have a characteristic tone...so do all audio system components This is a major reason—and possibly the fundamental reason—why today’s conventional engineering practices alone are doomed to perpetuate the design and production of products that are a “Dr. Jekyll” in one audio system, and a “Mr. Hyde” in another. The significance of an audio component’s resonances, to both consumer and designer alike, is a hidden aspect that confounds and confuses those seeking to build a truly enjoyable system. It “confounds and confuses” because without an adequate understanding of how resonance affects a product’s “sound,” designers cannot build nor can consumers buy a component that sounds accurate AND musical in any and all systems."... this is a hobby with a never end. Each day are new topology in circuits design and better electronic components. Your Martin Logan speaker are a very delicate electronic instruments, that with the proper care, will shine and will give to you what we are seeking!, that is: to have in our own place, all those great musician(s) performing for you...right there. Happy listening!

The post takes several small engineering facts, mixes them together, takes them way out of engineering context and the jumps to conclusions that have nothing to do with how analog audio cables work.

 

[roberto]

Yes. you are right!. The final judgement is your ears. As you do know too, the cables are a very important factor in our system chain. Your skill is to discover and find the right combination in your system and it is part of our beloved hobby. It is not an easy task. You have to spend many time with different kind of cables topology. We do now that the electrons like to travel at the outer edge, the outside of the surface cable. Another topic of cable design. If you want to go further inside of the complex signal, PM me, I will be glad to answer all your questions. I am an electronic engineer, but I do not know everything. I am learning as you are too. This is an endless topic. I have being over 35 years in the high-end stuff. And I assure you that I can learn from you too. If you are talking about analogue, my first job, when I graduated from the University, was as Ing. assistant at Channel 7 TV broadcast here. I did service all the signal repeaters for channels 5-7-9-11-12. I had to service every month in different country locations, these signal repeaters. Getting back, the cables do not make the system to sound better, they make it to sound less worse. Trust your ears, and choose the one that you liked most. This is my personal liking, and my findings. Sometimes, a very expensive cable, does not work as I should expected to... so as I said, trust your ears. Listen a lot to live music. Listen how a piano fills the room, and try to get the same or at least like it, in your system. Listen carefully, how a guitar or a trumpet sounds, drums, cymbals, maracas, percussion instruments, congas, violin, violas, cellos, french horns, oboe, fagot, clarinets, violas, wind instruments, brass instruments, percussion instruments. And of course, the human voice. Female and male voices must come out without any glare. You must understand at a piano, what the left hand is doing vs the right hand... and choosing the right cables, we can get all this. It not only the quality of our goods, it is too, the quality of our system cables. These does not mean, the expensive ones are the best. You must have to do a research of which cable suites better in your system. The resolution of the cables do not provide all. It's the feeling of the musician(s) what I do recommend to seek. You can tell easy, the musicians that are playing with your favorite star... this is what the cables do!...not missing the interact of the musician(s) with the public... happy listening!

 

[snyderkv]

Yes. you are right!. The final judgement is your ears. As you do know too, the cables are a very important factor in our system chain. Your skill is to discover and find the right combination in your system and it is part of our beloved hobby. It is not an easy task. You have to spend many time with different kind of cables topology. We do now that the electrons like to travel at the outer edge, the outside of the surface cable. Another topic of cable design. If you want to go further inside of the complex signal, PM me, I will be glad to answer all your questions. I am an electronic engineer, but I do not know everything. I am learning as you are too. This is an endless topic. I have being over 35 years in the high-end stuff. And I assure you that I can learn from you too. If you are talking about analogue, my first job, when I graduated from the University, was as Ing. assistant at Channel 7 TV broadcast here. I did service all the signal repeaters for channels 5-7-9-11-12. I had to service every month in different country locations, these signal repeaters. Getting back, the cables do not make the system to sound better, they make it to sound less worse. Trust your ears, and choose the one that you liked most. This is my personal liking, and my findings. Sometimes, a very expensive cable, does not work as I should expected to... so as I said, trust your ears. Listen a lot to live music. Listen how a piano fills the room, and try to get the same or at least like it, in your system. Listen carefully, how a guitar or a trumpet sounds, drums, cymbals, maracas, percussion instruments, congas, violin, violas, cellos, french horns, oboe, fagot, clarinets, violas, wind instruments, brass instruments, percussion instruments. And of course, the human voice. Female and male voices must come out without any glare. You must understand at a piano, what the left hand is doing vs the right hand... and choosing the right cables, we can get all this. It not only the quality of our goods, it is too, the quality of our system cables. These does not mean, the expensive ones are the best. You must have to do a research of which cable suites better in your system. The resolution of the cables do not provide all. It's the feeling of the musician(s) what I do recommend to seek. You can tell easy, the musicians that are playing with your favorite star... this is what the cables do!...not missing the interact of the musician(s) with the public... happy listening!

Thanks again Rob, disregarding sonic quality and all that, can you recommend which speaker cable type or brand that have the least resistance (Ohms) because that is what I'm more concerned about rather than sonic qualities. The Spires Ohm ratings are right at the limit of my amps abilities, so I'm trying not to add resistance upstream as I add devices. Sorry for the newb questions but I can't simply audition speaker wires for that answer.

Thanks in advance.

 

[roberto]

I like a lot Nordost brand. Also, as Gordon pointed out, do some search. For price also I do like a lot DHLabs. They are selling an America made cable, using silver plated and copper. This is what DHLabs says about the T-14: ..." The cable is completely manufactured in the U.S.A. The process begins with strands of high purity OFC copper, which are individually coated with a thick layer of silver. The strands are then tightly wound and extruded with our PTFE insulation. Silver Sonic T-14 uses PTFE, which is the finest dielectric available for speaker cables. The cable has a very low capacitance of 21.5 pico-farads per foot. The inductance is also very low, which allows consistent performance with a wide variety of speakers. In fact, a ten foot length of T-14 cable has less inductance than the output stages of many amplifiers! Vibration damping spacers and a tensioned wrap under the jacket hold the conductors tightly in place, and the cable is completely free from resonances and microphonic effects that cause a loss of resolution. From the deepest bass to the highest treble, T-14 provides the most transparent sound possible, with precise imaging and a large, deep sound stage."... perhaps you might like this cable as I do. Remember, cables are a matter of liking. What I like, not necessary you must like it too. Happy listening.

 

[snyderkv]

I like a lot Nordost brand. Also, as Gordon pointed out, do some search. For price also I do like a lot DHLabs. They are selling an America made cable, using silver plated and copper. This is what DHLabs says about the T-14: ..." The cable is completely manufactured in the U.S.A. The process begins with strands of high purity OFC copper, which are individually coated with a thick layer of silver. The strands are then tightly wound and extruded with our PTFE insulation. Silver Sonic T-14 uses PTFE, which is the finest dielectric available for speaker cables. The cable has a very low capacitance of 21.5 pico-farads per foot. The inductance is also very low, which allows consistent performance with a wide variety of speakers. In fact, a ten foot length of T-14 cable has less inductance than the output stages of many amplifiers! Vibration damping spacers and a tensioned wrap under the jacket hold the conductors tightly in place, and the cable is completely free from resonances and microphonic effects that cause a loss of resolution. From the deepest bass to the highest treble, T-14 provides the most transparent sound possible, with precise imaging and a large, deep sound stage."... perhaps you might like this cable as I do. Remember, cables are a matter of liking. What I like, not necessary you must like it too. Happy listening.

Great! thanks